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Who's the donkey? 1-3 PLO hand

PhulHouze Posts: 200Member
I'm very new to PLO so forgive the newbness of the question. I play a lot of NL, so I just imagine I'm up against 6 NL hands....anyway.

Short-handed (5 players) 1-3 PLO table. Effective stacks $100. Loose aggro guy is raising about 35% pots pre to $12. 1 or two callers in-between. I look down at QheartTheartTspade8spade and 3 bet. I'm not quick enough at calculating pot size bets, so I just put out $45 and V calls. Flop comes KJ7r. I feel I'm basically committed with my open-ender, pair and a BDFD, with the pot now twice my stack. I shove for $55. Villain tanks and tanks, and finally calls with Aspade9club8spade7diamond. Board runs out 98, and villain takes it down with two pair (3 pair...).

So I know 3-betting w pocket tens is an overplay in PLO, but my thought was that I had a hand that was pretty well connected, and that I would be ahead of Vs open range. After seeing villain's hand, his calls struck me as particularly spewy. Am I underestimating the strength of the three card medium run-down with a suited ace? OTF, is he just committed with any pair given how close equities run? At the end of the day, doesn't this just mean that under 100 BBs any time you call pre, you're pretty much committing your stack?

Again, I'm completely new to this game, but I'm starting to see why people talk about the variance being so high - just seemed like any time two players got any piece of the flop, stacks were going in.


  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    So I greatly prefer his hand PF better than yours to go to war. I would read Jeff Hwang's first book if you haven't already.

    His hand has two things going for it:
    -Suited A (draw to the nuts)
    -3 connected cards in a row, allowing straight draws to the nuts on the right boards.

    Your hand has issues and I would not have 3 bet it, especially OOP (seems like you were) and short stacked.
    -Gap at the top end of your SD means many of your flopped draws would not be to the nuts
    -Your PP could easily be dominated by a 3 bet calling range
    -Both of your FDs could be easily dominated if you hit

    Your hand is much more set up to be 2nd best if you hit the flops you are looking for. Whereas his "hit" flops are really only problematic on b'way straight and is probably easy to fold the low-end to heat if things worked out that way.

    As for post-flop, I agree that he doesn't have much with an OESD and pair of 7s. But don't have any fold equity given your stack size at this point, so I understand his call (and it sounds like he gave it a lot of thought). It may have been different if you had a deep stack to leverage.
  • PhulHouze Posts: 200Member

    Looks like I have him crushed pre and it was basically an all-in pre...

    And on the flop...


    Looks like he was BARELY getting odds to call it off OTF, but I think his pf call was LOLbad.

    Just learned about PPT from Bart/Aesah, so I can actually figure out the real equities now.
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    PPT is great. With all due respect, I don't think it tells the whole story unless the two of you laid your hands face up before you made your decision (you didn't know his exact 4 cards and visa versa). Lets say this is hold'em and PPT tells you that AA is 81% favorite vs. TT -- does that tell you what either of you would do with the hands PF (without knowing each others cards)?

    I see your point however -- I was focusing on the post-flop playability of both hands in Omaha, and how I think about both hands assuming that I would see the flop and make decisions based on certain textures. A987 has multiple ways to make nut draws, QTT8 will get you into trouble draws.

    I wasn't evaluating AI equity vs. a certain range, which is what I now understand your question to be. Given your specific situational question, you know your villain better than I. One other thing, the 30BB stacks also makes it more of a push/shove fest -- true Omaha is more action, but NLHE is more like thaat when short as well (e.g tourney poker).
  • PhulHouze Posts: 200Member
    Totally. Was just learning the game so I bought in for $200. Two guys taking turns raising pre so I was playing raise or fold pre. Doubled up w AAKJ double suited one time then lost with AQQ8 double suited all in pre against AKJ6 one suit....left me with $100 and the hand above. Crazy 40 minutes of PLO....
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    it sounds like the game was just a bingo fest with the short stacks.
    one thing to remember about plo is that it is intended to be a post flop game. it is very dis-similar to NL in the sense that the player with the preflop initiative / betting lead, generally does not just c-bet and take it down, except on the dryest of boards (552r, 993r, etc.). 3 betting pre rarely realizes much fold equity, except in rare cases you can make a big 3 bet against lots of field callers: equities run close , players like to see flops with lots of hands, etc. what it does generally accomplish is to build a big pot where stacking off post flop becomes less of a mistake with more types of hands.

    i would definitely not 3 bet with QTT8ds, but i would certainly call a raise, especially in position. making money in poker is about forcing your opponents to make "mistakes" and that is a lot easier to accomplish in position in plo. it is also a lot easier to do when SPR is high (effective stacks are deep), so creating a low SPR situation with QTT8 is not a very ideal situation, unless you are just looking to gamble. also, the pocket pair tends to reduce the strength of the hand, which is another reason to avoid building a big pot before seeing the flop.

    also, if the turn was a 9 as you posted in the OP, you would have made the nut straight.
  • PhulHouze Posts: 200Member
    Crap, you're right....I still have a hard time keeping track of hands. I may have started w/ AQTT...

    As for playing this hand pre, you say you'd call a raise deep in position but fold OOP. What about in the blinds against a player opening a very wide range? Even if equities are running close, it still seems sensible to bet when I'm ahead of my opponent's range, right? And the pair should decrease post-flop playability and ability to make nut hands, but doesn't it increase our PFAI equity? The bigger the pot and shallower stacks preflop, the more significance PFAI equity should have.

    I always hear people say what you are saying about PLO, and I'm sure it's correct, but I'm having a hard time understanding it mathematically, as it seems to contradict my understanding of probabilities and pot odds in general.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    If you just want to get all in pre with TTxx to gamble then feel free , but a pair of tens is so rarely going to : 1) be your 2 best cards after the river, or 2) be able to beat your opponent's best 2 cards, especially if he was willing to get it all in pre or post flop.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    In Omaha , all formats, we are looking to make a 5 card poker hand. Last I heard, it's tough to flop a set and then fill up. Straights and flushes are easier to make, and having only 3 different ranks in our hand inhibits our ability to make those hands. Also, the smaller the pocket pair, the smaller boat you are capable of making. It really sucks when u make a boat and are either drawing dead or drawing to dodge 18 outs.
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    chilidog said

    In Omaha , all formats, we are looking to make a 5 card poker hand. Last I heard, it's tough to flop a set and then fill up. Straights and flushes are easier to make, and having only 3 different ranks in our hand inhibits our ability to make those hands. Also, the smaller the pocket pair, the smaller boat you are capable of making. It really sucks when u make a boat and are either drawing dead or drawing to dodge 18 outs.
    ^^ Set over set is one of the worst possible situations in PLO. People seem more inclined to get away from second or third nut flush facing lots of heat, but seem to not understand that mid or bottom set is really the same situation on a dry board. Especially NLHE players just are not often capable of folding full houses. Small pocket pairs are the devil.
  • ScottyScotty Posts: 48Subscriber
    Your 3b preflop is terrible, Villains call of your 3b is terrible. Flop is standard for both players.
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