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Preflop hand selection versus Maniacs

This is my first post in this forum. I play 200 and 300 max 100 BB games in the SF Bay Area and Tahoe. Recently, I played a couple sessions against two different pre flop maniacs. Said villains would play close to 90% of hands and raise well over the majority of those hands (92s, A2o, etc), making it 8x to 10x to go. 3 betting ranges were tighter: 77+, AT+,KQ,KJs. The Villains would also fold to larger 3 bets: he makes it $25, opponent makes it $100. Post flop, said villains tightened up considerably: checking back flops they missed, but thought hit their opponent. Both Villains would push a draw aggressively on the flop.

How should I adjust my PF hand selection (particularly out of position) against this type of opponent? I found my self in difficult spots with the weaker part of my opening range: A2s, 55, 66, KQo. In the examples two of the examples below, I ended up calling 3 bets then folding. Would you just ditch these hands given stack sizes (100BB to 130BB) and the opponents tendencies? Limping seems like a really bad idea. If I call, how do we proceed post flop (see below).

(1/2 200 max)

Hand 1 (7 handed, effective stacks 250-ish)
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I open to $8 from MP with A2s, 1 caller, villain 3 bets to $35 OTB, I fold.

Hand 2 (6 handed, effective stacks 250-ish)
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I open to $12 with 55 UTG, villain shoves for 250, I fold.

(1/2/3 300 max)

Hand 3 (9 handed, effective stacks 425)
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Villain straddles, 1 limper, i make it $20 with 66 in BB, villain 3 bets to $45, i call

Flop: A Q 5

Villain bets $55, i fold

Hand 4 (9 handed effective stacks 375)
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Folds around, I make it $15 OTB with KQo, Villain makes it $55 in the SB, I call (probably a spew, I was getting a bit frustrated)

Flop: 664

Villain bets $60 I fold.

Comments

  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    On hands 1, 3, and 4, if you think the same villain is targeting you and constantly 3-betting you, then I would consider 4-bet/folding these hands. Given he's playing so many hands you are probably ahead of his range and he will fold. He will also probably start targeting other people when you start playing back at him. If he just calls, then you pretty much play your hand as if you had AAs on the flop, and normally he won't be able to call on the appropriate flops.

    Alternatively, try to get to this player's left (so he can't RR you) or tighten up PF.

    Your example suited As and small pocket pairs are the kind of hands you want to play for cheap against this kind of opponent -- my two cents in this situation I'd consider limp calling these hands if your stacks are deep enough.
  • hand 1: limp fold. shmed is right just get in cheap.
    hand 2: that is standard. it sucks but at best you are flipping and you can find better spots. I think you have to get it in with 99+ and AQ+ and maybe AJs
    hand 3: if you hit your set you are getting the right odds. it just sucks you miss. but you will get paid.
    hand 4: i think the calling is ok, but i also like 4bet b/c you need to make a stand sometime. especially if this is a regular. If you call I would call the flop and see

    what he does on the turn. king high might be good and that is a great cbet board. Also you can raise but that is a little bit risky. If he checks turn I would steal.
    How long was this going on? If its a long period then it might be bad luck. But if its with in an hour or so he is being really aggro and could be targeting you. was he doing this to anyone else? Sometimes you have to let him run you over and bite your tongue. It sucks, but emotions are bad to have in the poker room.
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    just stack off lighter. If you are constantly getting 3b polarize your opening range and stack off accordingly. 4b folding is terrible with these stack sizes so dont do that. Id open and get it in with 88+aj+. It also important that you get the last bet in. You dont want to be 4b 88 and have him think he has fold equity with hands like A9 and JTs. Just shove on him. Open to like 15 or something so when he 3b he has to do 40-50 so you can easily shove 300.
  • shmed said

    Your example suited As and small pocket pairs are the kind of hands you want to play for cheap against this kind of opponent -- my two cents in this situation I'd consider limp calling these hands if your stacks are deep enough.
    Thx for the reply. If I limp, I pay 8x or 10x to see a flop, if I raise then I only pay 4x. I don't see how limp calling to hit a set or a FD against this type of opponent could ever be good. I'm wondering if I should just dump these hands if the villain has a fairly wide, but not maniacal 3 bet range: 77+, AT+,KQ+, KJs.
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    SanHoser said
    shmed said

    Your example suited As and small pocket pairs are the kind of hands you want to play for cheap against this kind of opponent -- my two cents in this situation I'd consider limp calling these hands if your stacks are deep enough.
    Thx for the reply. If I limp, I pay 8x or 10x to see a flop, if I raise then I only pay 4x. I don't see how limp calling to hit a set or a FD against this type of opponent could ever be good. I'm wondering if I should just dump these hands if the villain has a fairly wide, but not maniacal 3 bet range: 77+, AT+,KQ+, KJs.
    Sorry let me clarify: My assumption and your examples were showing you getting blown off of implied value hands (esp when deep) by being constantly 3-bet. So I think the analogous math would be to compare the price of limp-calling vs. raise-3betted (not raise-flatted) on these hands.

    I normally wouldn't advocate limp-call but I did think this was an option if you felt like you were constantly being blown off-of your playable hands by 3-bet aggression. If you are saying that the 3-betting isn't the problem (it seems like it was in the examples) then I agree that I wouldn't limp-call.

    These implied value hands have more value the deeper your stack sizes are, since you often don't hit the flop. Bart talks alot about the 15-25-35 rule for PPs, suited connecters and suited gappers as being the stack size that you could win if you hit your hand. I would think about this stack size implied value in deciding whether to dump -- also your position of course. These hands are tough to play OOP unless you hit the board hard.
  • StopHammertimeStopHammertime Posts: 81Member
    In all but the last of these hands, Villain had position on you. That's what jumped out most to me.

    The last hand, if you're playing that hand from the button against this Villain, peeling one off here would be fine in a deeper-stacked game. But I don't think you can float him in a capped game. Perhaps 4-betting him with position on him would be in order. If he calls you've got position on him and he either has to donk into you (which is going to get him in trouble in that spot if he does it often enough) or you get to see a free turn card.

    In a capped game, I think your preflop hand ranges should be tighter anyway.
  • StopHammertimeStopHammertime Posts: 81Member
    shmed said

    These implied value hands have more value the deeper your stack sizes are, since you often don't hit the flop. Bart talks alot about the 15-25-35 rule for PPs, suited connecters and suited gappers as being the stack size that you could win if you hit your hand. I would think about this stack size implied value in deciding whether to dump -- also your position of course. These hands are tough to play OOP unless you hit the board hard.
    This is what I was getting at as well, but it's got me wondering more about the profile of Villain. Is he the type to over-play his hands post-flop? OP made it sound like he's pretty straight forward post-flop (which is what most people are in 3-bet pots). If he's 3-betting with AQ and you flop a set against him on an A-high board, with these stack sizes, you're probably getting everything from him. But I think we shouldn't be playing 76-suited or A3s against this player.

    Pocket pairs are probably good to call this guy's 3-bets with because we're often ahead, it sounds like he doesn't do much out of the ordinary post-flop in these spots, and we can of course also hit a set. I'm betting 88 on a 923J turn against this guy all day.

    I do find these players the hardest to play against, though.
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