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Ethical question on a chop pot.

This happened to a friend of mine at the table I was playing at last night. 2/5 game.

So, my friend (player a) went all in for 200 on a board that read a k q rainbow. this player (sitting next to him, player b) calls right away and everyone folds. My buddy tables his hand of j 10 and the other player holds his hand and has j 10. So, my friend sees his hand and the guy next to him see the hand. but the dealer doesn't. Player b then puts his cards face down and dealer takes them and both players take their money back. The dealer goes wait I need to count that, and the players look confused. The dealer said well you mucked your hand. So, player a counts the money and wins the pot. Hopefully I explained this well enough.

So, the questions I am curious what people think.
1. what should player a and b do?
2. should player a give the money back?
3. what if player b is a reg? He has played there before but lives in a different state and comes and plays once every 2-3 months. for various reasons.
4. so, a few hands after this happened play b went to get some racks and racked up with in 20 minutes. He is a loose aggro fish and great for the game. should my buddy give the money back for that reason? I think he left because of that because when he plays he usually stays till 3 or 4 in the morning. this was at midnight and the game has been going for 3o minutes or so. people were playing 1-2 until i got there and I got the game started.
5. I went to my buddy on the side and said you should give the money back. am i out of line? yes I want the other guy in the game, but I am all about ethics and fairness. I know I would no matter what. Its not my money.
6. should the dealer do something different?
After the guy left a lot of the regs said don't give it back and I just bit my tongue on this one.
thanks and I ma just curious what people think.

Comments

  • Doug Hull Posts: 15Member
    Cards speak for a reason. Table your hand.

    Did B ask him to chop it?

    Is Hero SURE he saw JT? How would Hero feel chopping the pot if there was any little doubt that it was a chop. Hero might spend the rest of the night wondering if it was really a chop. I know I would.

    I get so tired of people playing silly games like calling out their hand but not showing it, trying to only show one card to win the pot, stalling at showdown, etc... My sympathy is not really deep here. Your cards are your receipt for the pot. Be careful with them. Mine do not get moved towards the dealer until the pot is pushed to me.

    Villain put himself into this spot, your friend did nothing to angle or cause Villain to muck his hand. Dealer did the right thing. There is nothing wrong with keeping the pot, there is nothing wrong with splitting it. Whichever lets him sleep better at night.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    zmoney11 said

    This happened to a friend of mine at the table I was playing at last night. 2/5 game.

    So, my friend (player a) went all in for 200 on a board that read a k q rainbow. this player (sitting next to him, player b) calls right away and everyone folds. My buddy tables his hand of j 10 and the other player holds his hand and has j 10. So, my friend sees his hand and the guy next to him see the hand. but the dealer doesn't. Player b then puts his cards face down and dealer takes them and both players take their money back. The dealer goes wait I need to count that, and the players look confused. The dealer said well you mucked your hand. So, player a counts the money and wins the pot. Hopefully I explained this well enough.

    So, the questions I am curious what people think.
    1. what should player a and b do?
    2. should player a give the money back?
    3. what if player b is a reg? He has played there before but lives in a different state and comes and plays once every 2-3 months. for various reasons.
    4. so, a few hands after this happened play b went to get some racks and racked up with in 20 minutes. He is a loose aggro fish and great for the game. should my buddy give the money back for that reason? I think he left because of that because when he plays he usually stays till 3 or 4 in the morning. this was at midnight and the game has been going for 3o minutes or so. people were playing 1-2 until i got there and I got the game started.
    5. I went to my buddy on the side and said you should give the money back. am i out of line? yes I want the other guy in the game, but I am all about ethics and fairness. I know I would no matter what. Its not my money.
    6. should the dealer do something different?
    After the guy left a lot of the regs said don't give it back and I just bit my tongue on this one.
    thanks and I ma just curious what people think.
    My first thought is did the guy really have JT, or is he running some crappy angle? Flip your cards up and move on with life. The games people play about flipping cards up multi-way on the river are ridiculous. Cards speak. Muck your hand, too bad.

    The only caveat would be if the guy was a newcomer to the game and truly didn't know better.
  • player a saw the j t. and a gut next to player b saw it to.
  • This is a really odd spot. Cards definitely speak for themselves but that is only when they are tabled. I got into a 12K pot a few nights ago in PLO where my opponent and I both made backdoor flushes on the first run, but we both didn't notice that he had made a higher flush. His hand was tabled and we were almost about to chop the pot. At the last second he noticed that he had the best hand. Some other neutral players at the table, one being Limon, had noticed that he had the best hand on both runs. They would have definitely spoken up and said something if the other player didn't notice and the dealer started pushing me half the pot.

    This is much different from when a player holds his hand up and never tables it. I see this all of the time in O8 where people miss hidden lows. You'll have your throat slit if you are the guy next to him at 100-200 and say something. The guy has to table his hand.

    With that being said if the guy is a big fish or a new player I usually give him the benefit of the doubt in your spot since I know I'm going to win his money anyway. That is to say if I can confirm from people that I trust that he did indeed have the hand that he said and merely did not table it. This would be different if the board was say A559K in an all in pot and I tabled AQ and the guy went to muck AT. That is a clear misread of the board.

    That's my play. I think it is entirely up to your buddy, however, and if I were you I wouldn't pressure him into doing anything.

    Bart
  • Bart: i agree if the person misreads their hand, but players literally saw the hands and took their bets back because it was a chop. I don't think i pressured my friend at least i hope i didn't. I just said you should give it back because he was looking for my opinion. i said ti once and that is it.

    thanks for people's input. I just felt this was an interesting situation, and I was curious what people had to say.
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    he needs to learn a lesson. If people keep giving him half the pot when he mucks hes never gonna learn and so many more are going to be put in this spot. What id do is let him take his bet back and scoop whatever was already in the middle. Call it a fee for the lesson or something.
  • Doug Hull Posts: 15Member
    Bart said

    His hand was tabled and we were almost about to chop the pot. At the last second he noticed that he had the best hand. Some other neutral players at the table, one being Limon, had noticed that he had the best hand on both runs. They would have definitely spoken up and said something if the other player didn't notice and the dealer started pushing me half the pot.

    This is much different from when a player holds his hand up and never tables it. I see this all of the time in O8 where people miss hidden lows. You'll have your throat slit if you are the guy next to him at 100-200 and say something. The guy has to table his hand.

    Bart
    I agree with Bart. When the hand is *untabled*, it is your ethical responsibility *to remain silent*. Once tabled, everyone at the table can and should correct any mistakes in pushing the pot. Tommy's (excellent) Elements of poker mentions a few good extreme cases where you should reasonably be quiet in mistakes. (i.e. Villain doubles up a guy for like $2k, but gets $5 extra in change. It is just rude to point out that little mistake and demand the Villain give back $5 more. Insult to injury...)

    I once had a hand where the Villain needed a single Ace for a chop. He played the 'only show one' game: showing an Ace but not the (irrelevant) kicker. The dealer looked at him, Villain just sat there. Finally I said "Muck or show, let's go." He mucked. His choice. Table your hand...
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