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Nuts Deep 3- way, wait for safe turn?

Sdgrinder Posts: 18Subscriber
10/20/40- straddle most of the time

Villain 1 (13k) is the spot and everyone at the table knows it. Plays any four and isn't afraid to stick it in. He's up a decent amount mostly from non-showdown pots this session.

Villain 2 (22k) is one of the better regs, but not a pro. Does surprisingly well for how snug he plays at times. If he is putting money into the pot muti-way he has a solid holding. Currently up an insignificant amount, about 2k.

Hero (covers). I'm one of the more consistent winners in the game. Don't win huge or lose huge amounts, just overall solid. I have a TAG imagine, but am not afraid to take multi-street shots on scary boards.

Hero-sb
V1-bb
V2-straddle.


Two limps to me and I raise to 210 with aaqqss. All call and we see a flop 5 ways.

Q64ccs (1050)
Hero leads 800, V1 raises to 2100, V2 tank calls.
At this point V1 either has a set or is overplaying the NFD a large majority of the time.
V2 usually has a multi-way hand here, pair+wrap or flush draw. I think he would raise a set of 6s or 4s after V1 shows interest. I also don't think he tanks with a set believe he was debating raise v call, not call v fold.
One of the limpers also calls (believe he had around 10k)
Pot is now 6150 and 1300 for me to call. I wasn't sure if I should pot it to blow out V2 and the limper, knowing I will get V1 to commit, or wait for a safe card on a very wet word.

Sorry for the verbose post, first time on a strategy forum.

Thanks for reading and the insights.

Comments

  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    this HH is unclear, you said it's 3-way and gave description on 2 villains but then you said there's another guy who overcalls there too?

    3-bet flop and it's not that close here imo
  • BartBart Posts: 5,926AdministratorLeadPro
    What turns exactly are you looking for? With three players in the hand any nut changing turn can beat you and by the way that it looks the only safe cards are a board pair or a non clubbed K, J, T, 9 or single ace. And Don can correct me if I am wrong here but by reraising the flop you could drive out players with proper equity to call AND get value from worse sets. Waiting until the turn may scare some of the worse hands out and some of the drawing hands that may have folded on the flop could pick up additional mathematically correct calling equity with broadway blanks.

    Bart
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    Pot pot pot all day here, man. You are getting action from the NFD and other flopped sets, but can often fold out non nut draws.
  • Sdgrinder Posts: 18Subscriber
    Apologizes, guess it wasn't worth a thread.
    Lets just say I was a dog when the money went in.


    hopefully I can record some interesting HHs and we can get this PLO forum some more traffic.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    Sdgrinder said
    Apologizes, guess it wasn't worth a thread.
    If you learned anything, then it was worth the thread

    actually scratch that

    if *anyone* who read it learned anything, then it was worth the thread
    Sdgrinder said
    Lets just say I was a dog when the money went in.
    this is very results oriented, as only a very small fraction of hands villain should be getting it in here with is ahead of you (and even though 17-card wrap + flush draw is better against your exact hand, sometimes you'll have him crushed with AAxxcc. not to mention it super rare). Even against the absolute best non-QQxx hand villain can possibly have here vs. your range, NFD + nut wrap + backdoor flush draw***, you're 50/50 (and obviously that's super rare since it's 4 exact cards).

    ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
    820 trials (Exhaustive)
    board: Qspade6club4spade
    AcAdQcQd 50.00%
    As7s5c8c 50.00%

    More importantly, villain should also be getting it in with NFD + OESDs and NFD + gutters due to pot odds now which you're way ahead of. For example here's NFD+ nut OESD:

    ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
    820 trials (Exhaustive)
    board: Qspade6club4spade
    AcAdQcQd 59.02%
    As7s5hTh 40.98%

    ***fiddling with the numbers can make A753 better but it's extremely negligible/marginal.

    TLDR: you're ahead even if your opponent holds the nuts.
  • ScottyScotty Posts: 48Subscriber
    aesah is looking at the PPT equities incorrectly. HU you cant be behind but 3way you can when its Top set vs middle set vs big draw. (the big draw is a favorite). But you cant really worry about that because it can just as easily be your Top set vs big draw vs big draw and then YOU are the nice favorite cause they block each other others outs. So it all kinda balances out.
  • ScottyScotty Posts: 48Subscriber
    3way all in on the flop in PLO:

    Best set 40-50% equity
    best draw 30-50% equity
    weaker draw or lower set <10% equity

    The 3rd guy gets screwed! So essentially 1 and 2 are chopping up the 3rd guys money. This is why you do NOT want to be the third guy; the poor soul drawing to the second nut flush or bottom wrap; the guy who cant fold bottom set. This is where bad players get destroyed... this is also why "nuttiness" in preflop hand selection is so important multi-way. It prevents you from being this guy. DON'T BE THIS GUY!
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    Scotty said

    aesah is looking at the PPT equities incorrectly.
    I only posted PPT after the 5th post in this thread (which factors in the hand situation of course), although I suppose it is possible in some extremely, extremely obscure situations to not have enough multiway equity with top set and nut BDFD
  • jeffnc Posts: 57Member
    Sometimes you can wait until a safe turn card with a nut hand like a straight, but with top set - not so good. If you wait and then fold when a scare card comes, you give up all your full house draw equity. Notice this situation doesn't happen with the straight - the straight has nowhere to go if a bad cards comes. You do. Jam it.
  • fishcake Posts: 962Subscriber
    edited March 2014
    Jam. Too easy to make a mistake or give someone else a chance to fold on some turns by calling. Omaha is a pretty sick game deep.
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