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Double barreling monotone A high board - does size matter?

PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
edited January 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$2/5 $200-500

Villain ($500) 40's white guy. Rec player. Sat down maybe 2 orbits ago. Nothing really noteworthy so far. I think he raised preflop one time and took the pot down on a cbet.

Hero ($500) Half hour into the session. Nothing really noteworthy happened. Haven't really played pots since villain got there

Game was super nitty and $25 iso were getting folds so I iso'd small on purpose.

MP limps
Hero (HJ) Ks Qh raises to $20
Villain calls in BB
MP calls

$60
Flop: Ac 9c 2c
Checks to hero, hero bets $35, villain calls, MP folds

$130
Turn: Ac 9c 2c Jc
Villain checks, hero?

1) Are you betting
2) Does sizing matter?

1) I think villain has many more aces in his range than big clubs. KK/QQ with a club probably 3b's and AK/AQ often do also. Villain might call any ace, especially suited but fewer Kx and Qx hands. If I bet twice, depending on what kind of rec player he is he probably folds a hand like Ad5c just because the club is so low, but possibly not.

2) If the guy has something like A4dd unless I bet like $25 I think he's just folding. Do you think me betting maybe $65 versus me betting $85 or $90 matters at all? Where it might come in is if villain has something like the 8c/Tc or POSSIBLY AJ. Not that it really matters against my range but we know fish aren't thinking that.

Another random side question. Lets say we had AK with no club or maybe AJ with no club. Are we always checking turn?

I'm wondering if we bet like $30 if villain might curiosity look us up with random aces and check river. We also fade a bluff if villain has some kind of ridiculous hand and takes a stab if we check river thinking we can't call.

Comments

  • pocket11s Posts: 104Subscriber
    Interested to know this too.
  • marseille Posts: 400Subscriber
    edited January 2014
    Why do you think he has more As in his range than big clubs? In BB, lots of players use that discount to call with all sorts of crap- q9, j8, k10, etc. This seems really dependent on live reads- how he ch/calls, how he checks turn. Would he check his flush? I don't think size matters, except that you want to do the job for as little as possible. If you are trying to get him off ace, I would think 1/2 pot is fine. If you knew he was sticky, I guess you could size it smaller so you can follow up with a third barrel.

    If we had a big A here, I would check back, just because there are fewer As in his range.

    As an aside, I'm curious whether you are more apt to barrel an A high monotone board. Are all monotone boards equal?
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    I think he has more aces than big clubs because a rec player might call any ace and definitely any suited ace. He's not calling K2o I don't think, but he is calling A2o some of the time. In addition some of the big club hands AK, KK, QQ etc might 3b preflop.

    We also have to look at the turn. If he turned the nuts, there's some frequency he's going to bet. Possibly because he's a rec player and he hit the nuts, and they like to bet the nuts. Partly because he thinks I'm going to check. Maybe he doesn't want the board to pair. If I bet half pot I only need to win 33% and I don't think he has the K/Q/Jc 66%.

    I could also check turn and bet river if he checks. At that point I think I WOULD have to bet bigger because a guy might call river with like AJ/AQ, or maybe even any ace thinking I'm taking a stab and knowing he only has to call one bet.

    If the board was like 923ccc and I cbet air and the turn was like the 6c I dunno. You'd think he'd lead the Ac a lot, but I feel like guys will play tricky sometimes. You might get away with checking turn and betting river if he checks, because then he never has the nuts.
  • t_roy Posts: 84Subscriber
    Half pot should get it done.

    I think monotone boards with an A on the flop are particularly ripe to bluff at when the flush comes in. People are so A heavy preflop that they have many more weak made hands and much fewer strong flushes on this kind of board. I never really thought about it before but your opponents flop calling range is drastically different if the board is Q high monotone.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited January 2014
    I think barreling this kind of monotone board depends a lot of whether Villain checked his hole cards or not for a high club during the flop action.

    If he never checked his hole cards after the monotone flop came out, then I would be inclined to double barrel the turn 70% pot because he rarely has a big flush here. If he had a hand with just one high club in it, he would usually check his hole cards to make sure that he had a high club at some point before the turn comes out.

    If Villain had checked his hole cards for a high club on the flop, then I would be less likely to double barrel turn as a bluff.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    PIF

    If you want more folds you are going to need to bet bigger than this. Players see this bet and will call down even though they may feel they are beat anyways. Its human nature to want to see what you have. To overcome this you have to make it painful enough so they overcome their curiosity..

    So I am betting closer to pot on the flop and on a good turn card will bet big again. Assuming effective stacks are big enough to fold if I am check raised..

    I am NOT balancing my bet size in this spot.

    1) players play very straightforward on monotone boards
    2) as DC said pay attention to see if they check for a club.. no one does this if they have a flush already

    I bluff on these boards all the time as the preflop raiser. Even if a player did flop an Ace they always give me credit for a high flush draw and many times just fold on the flop. If they call and I get a good turn card I bet again and get virtually 100% folds. If they call again I just give up..

    ww
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    edited January 2014
    I actually bet $65 OTT just because I figured he's calling or he's not. Villain ended up calling, river was an offsuit Q. He checked, I checked back and villain showed AJ with no club obviously and won.

    Didn't really think of that hand. He didn't check for a club OTF. He actually took out $150 in $25 chips and was shuffling them for a long time before calling and I thought he was going to raise.

    I think next time, just in case I'm going to bet at least 2/3 pot just to discourage that kind of call, but for all I know he calls anyway thinking he has full house outs for some reason.

    Thanks for the replies.
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