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2/5 KJs in BB

TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
edited January 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
6 limp, SB completes, Hero makes it 35 more in BB with K J, UTG+1 calls, SB calls. 3 way to flop.
(130) Q 9 5 checked around
(130) 4 SB bets 150, Hero moves AI for 500. Both villains cover.
UTG+1 LP, SB is capable of attacking orphan pots.
«1

Comments

  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    Nice hand?
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    edited January 2014
    Nice hand?
    Really? You fine with Hero not repping anything with this line?
  • Is there a reason you didn't c-bet flop 3 handed. Raising out of blinds pre usually looks strong unless you habitually attack limps from blinds. As played it depends on how often sb is willing to stack off with 1 pr.He should be able to put you on almost exactly what you have. Of course if he'll fold 1/3 times should be profit.
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    I would just check this back pre and take a flop more times than not. No sense in raising hands for the fish that should have raised themselves that have you dominated and oop. for example, KQ or AJ that LP fish limp/call pre all the time.

    I would be c-betting this flop a lot. Not sure why you didn't. Pretty great texture.

    As played, I mean you are repping a pretty polarized range and I think you get called a lot here by any Q.

  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    Nice hand?


    Really? You fine with Hero not repping anything with this line?
    Ok. Terrible hand?

    My point being: you gave no information other than Villians cover you, UTG+1 is Loose Pasive and SB is capable of attacking orphaned pots. You don't even give the stakes that you are playing. What would you like the feedback to be? Most of the threads that you start or contribute to here don't involve any level of discussion past some combination of: here's what I did/what I would do, this is why it's the right play, the rest of you don't know what you are doing, balance.

    To your specific question about not repping anything - I don't think it matters. Is a 1 pair hand really going to call a ~2x pot shove, even if they have a suspicion that you may be bluffing?
  • San Hoser Posts: 16Subscriber
    As played, If you expect SB to lead with any piece of the board on the flop and bluff large with ace high on the turn, then nice play as he has nothing he can call with. If that's not the case, or we don't have reads then I would call the turn: you have 11 to 16 outs depending on his holding.

    That said, I agree with Jon's assessment of checking PF.

  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,804Subscriber
    Yea I agree with Jon as well on pre and flop.

    As played I mean I guess you can rep a set? If villian is good I think this is too thin.

    Is wining pot here sometimes as a bluff better ten calling and using our equity to gain value on river if we hit? We can value bet so many hands including if a K or maybe even if a J hits.

    Idk I can stuck in these spots and I second guess what was the better line to take.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    What does your read mean of attacks orphan pots? Does that mean overbet the pot with air? Or does that mean take a few stabs of half pot and this is an abnormal bet size?

    I'd cbet the flop and barrel a lot of runouts when we hit a king, straight, BDFD's, and probably and ace.

    As played, I guess it's okay given the incomplete info.
    I would just check this back pre and take a flop more times than not. No sense in raising hands for the fish that should have raised themselves that have you dominated and oop. for example, KQ or AJ that LP fish limp/call pre all the time.

    Granted, OP didn't give any real reads, but I think this is pretty bad logic. The fish may limp/call AJ+, but they will also limp/call 43s+, AXo, any broadway, 87o+, pairs, K4s, Q7s, etc. If they are bad postflop too, then they might call the flop super light and fold to our turn barrel (gutters, bottom pair). Or they might call down to the river with 2nd pair. It depends on the player, but no matter the tendency, if they are loose when they limp, this is a raise. So while we may accidentally help him out with AJ when we specifically hit an ace or jack and put a lot of money in the pot, we crush him the other 90% of hands he has or when he misses with his AJ and folds.

    The only time this logic is right is when we are specifically up against older nitty players that only play 88+, AJ+ and play 10/2 preflop stats. We accidentally build the pot against their good range. But even then, we can probably still make some profitable postflop bluffs every time that they miss their set mine and they won't call cbets with TT on Q95. So even in this case, it depends on their postflop tendencies and whether or not they can adjust to your aggro play and bluff catch postflop.
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber

    Granted, OP didn't give any real reads, but I think this is pretty bad logic. The fish may limp/call AJ+, but they will also limp/call 43s+, AXo, any broadway, 87o+, pairs, K4s, Q7s, etc. If they are bad postflop too, then they might call the flop super light and fold to our turn barrel (gutters, bottom pair). Or they might call down to the river with 2nd pair. It depends on the player, but no matter the tendency, if they are loose when they limp, this is a raise. So while we may accidentally help him out with AJ when we specifically hit an ace or jack and put a lot of money in the pot, we crush him the other 90% of hands he has or when he misses with his AJ and folds.


    I hear what you are saying but if they are going to call down with any piece then why not wait till the flop to bloat the pot? We can make top pair with our hand and then easily massage the pot so that by the river we have taken max value regardless of the pre flop action. Obv if we are 200BB+ deep we are not going to get it all but we can still make a decent chunk by just checking back.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber


    I hear what you are saying but if they are going to call down with any piece then why not wait till the flop to bloat the pot? We can make top pair with our hand and then easily massage the pot so that by the river we have taken max value regardless of the pre flop action. Obv if we are 200BB+ deep we are not going to get it all but we can still make a decent chunk by just checking back.
    Well, when we raise, the pot gets a lot bigger. If someone's mistake is floating a gutshot or bottom pair on the flop, then we want the pot to be bigger. If their mistake is calling really wide pre and not defending enough postflop, then we want the pot bigger when we cbet. It kind of depends on the specific players on why we would want the pot bigger, but in general, we will be making more money when the pots are larger and we have an equity advantage of some kind (whether it be bluffing equity or value betting equity).

    Say the flop is 4 way at 2/5. There is $20 in the pot. We could raise to $25 and if called by all, the pot would be $100. If the flop is K97ss, then we can bet $75 and get called by JT, 86, 65, 9x, 7x, Kx, TT, JJ, 88, flush draws, etc.

    If we checked the big blind, there would be $20 in the pot and our flop bet would likely be $15. That is a $60 difference every time we hit our hand. Or if we get it heads up or 3 way or flop a big draw, that's an $80 difference in the pot size every time we win on the flop.

    Now, if you carry that over to the turn. If they call a $75 bet into $100 in the raised hand scenario, the pot is now $250. And then their mistakes get multiplied even more. Now they are calling a $150 or so bet. Compare this to the limped pot where now the pot after a $15 lead into a $20 pot with a call will result in a $55 pot. Now we will bet in the range of $35-40. This is a $100+ difference in our turn bet sizing. Even if we pot, pot, pot it, we would have a $60 pot on the turn, $180 pot on the river compared to having a $250 pot on the turn when we raised. Now, I understand that we won't win every hand when we hit, when we bluff, and will have to x/give up a decent amount, but raising will overall be a largely +EV play. I can't emphasize the pot size difference enough because of how important it is when multiway. Having a $100 vs $20 pot on the flop is such a big difference and can drastically change improve our winrate.

    Think about it like this. If an MP opener raised to $20, there was a button call, the small blind called, and you have K4s, 53s or 87o in the big blind, would you call? The answer is no, but why? We are basically calling a $20 raise and we aren't expecting to win more than our call back in the long run. Every time somebody is calling a $20 raise with 87o against our raise with our range, they are donating a % of that $20 to the pot. So maybe they only win back $10 or $15 for every $20 they put in or something. If they are willing to make that mistake, we are losing out on so much value by not raising pre.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Nice hand?


    Really? You fine with Hero not repping anything with this line?
    Well, I'm not fine with it. I think you rep basically nothing. No draws completed on the turn, no made hands (overpair+) should ever check this flop as the pre-flop raiser. The only hand you're repping is 44, and of the times you have 44, how many times are you raising that pre-flop, checking flop, AND raising AI after SB leads turn?

    Terrible line, TDF.

    I'm not a HUGE hater of raising out of the BB after all the limps as you will thin the field considerably and your high cards making a pair might be good at showdown. You might even make it $50 to go since you are so far out of position and picking up all the dead money pre-flop isn't a bad thing with KJs.

  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,804Subscriber
    People limp call with AA KK and AK all the time at my place obv old men are usual suspects. Throw in occasionally middle aged thinks he tricky guy.

    If I'm a table with those guys I'm limping then playing ABC post and pot control.

    If the table is a Friday night table full of 'pros' then I'm more willing to raise KJ.

    Obv not a rule or anything just something I consider whether to raise from blinds after many limpers.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    Is there a reason you didn't c-bet flop 3 handed.
    - When they limp/call I think their range is weighted heavily to middling connected cards and this flop hit that range pretty well.
    - I have gutshot and I don't want to be raised off it.
    - I'm not going to 3 barrel this board cause it's almost impossible to get good barreling turn and river. So if I'm only planning to bet two streets I prefer to bet turn and river here cause it's more effective way to get them off Ace high or small pair.
    - I raise PF pretty often and I don't want to be auto cbetting 100% of flops.
    Raising out of blinds pre usually looks strong unless you habitually attack limps from blinds.
    I'm not sure how much difference in rec players eyes is raising out blinds vs MP for example. And I do habitually attack limps (not so much from blinds but there is no prove that They see the difference)
    Of course if he'll fold 1/3 times should be profit.
    How did you get this number? I think he needs to fold almost 50% for shove to be profitable. Assuming we have 33% equity when called.

  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    My point being: you gave no information other than Villians cover you, UTG+1 is Loose Pasive and SB is capable of attacking orphaned pots. You don't even give the stakes that you are playing. What would you like the feedback to be?
    I'm not really interested what the best line vs those two villains cause this situation is never going to happen again. So I want feedback in a form "If SB straight-forward nit who never folds, I call and ship river when I hit. If SB bluffy and goes after orphaned pots a lot I call turn and call river ship unimproved." and so on.
    Most of the threads that you start or contribute to here don't involve any level of discussion past some combination of: here's what I did/what I would do, this is why it's the right play, the rest of you don't know what you are doing, balance.
    I just don't want to go deep into details if nobody interested in them. I'm happy to give explanation any time somebody asks me "Why?"
    Do you 100% know what are you doing? I'm certainly not. If I knew I wouldn't post here.
    About balance - I don't think I've ever said that you should balance. And I agree that most likely you don't. What I'm saying is:
    1.anybody who wants to win at poker need to know what balanced play is
    2.balanced play is most likely to be the best play when you don't have any reads on your villains.
    To your specific question about not repping anything - I don't think it matters. Is a 1 pair hand really going to call a ~2x pot shove, even if they have a suspicion that you may be bluffing?
    Cheers mate, appreciated.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    What does your read mean of attacks orphan pots? Does that mean overbet the pot with air? Or does that mean take a few stabs of half pot and this is an abnormal bet size?
    He usually bets big postflop. When he calls PF IP and on the flop it's checked to him he quite often just bombs to take it down without regards to his equity. But he also uses same sizing with his monsters. I guess he shows his big bluffs to get action when he hit. I saw a hand when he had KK vs AA, they played it "tricky" and saw flop, so postflop he made AA fold by betting for value on low flop :)

  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber

    Is wining pot here sometimes as a bluff better ten calling and using our equity to gain value on river if we hit? We can value bet so many hands including if a K or maybe even if a J hits.
    I believe that general strategy of calling to make a hand and then get value when we hit is terrible. But may be I'm wrong?
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    DrGambol, thanks for your posts. Great explanations. I'm with you on everything you said.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,804Subscriber
    edited January 2014
    How about when we have very little to small FE? Do we still bet raise instead of check calling?

  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    Well, of course if we have less than 50% of FE bluff raising becomes -EV. But if we have so little FE it means we mostly up against 2pair+ and we only have around 20% equity. So if we call turn we pretty much need to stack him OTR when we hit to show profit.
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    Is this another troll thread?

    Ok, he attacks orphan pots. What do you expect him to bet into 3 people? Is he ever folding a queen to this line?

    Don told me once when I made a post - write down villain's betting range. Write down the hands he's folding. Are you winning enough of the time? If so, raise.

    IMO it makes a heck of a lot more sense to simply cbet flop as you might get a lot of hands to fold.
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