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Flopping quads, should we fast-play here?

Dragon-Ash Posts: 203Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hand history being discussed on another forum, there was some fundamental disagreement in what line Hero should take.

$1/2, effective stacks about $300. No reads other than UTG appears competent.

Villain 1 is UTG, Villain 2 is MP, Hero is in the cutoff.

Pre-flop: V1 raises to $6, V2 calls, Hero calls with 10h 10d.

Flop ($21):
Flop 10c 10s Kc

V1 bets $30
V2 calls
Hero....?

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    There is value in raising here because no one will put you on Quads.. They will think you have a 10 but I bet they think their kicker might play or they could win by outdrawing you. If you think these players would still call with a T or they will still draw to their straight or flush then by all mean raise.. But not too big.. you need to make it look like you are just juicing the pot.. So maybe raise to as little as 75..

    V1 overbet the pot so he probabaly has a K or maybe even Aces... You could get his whole stack if he bet thrsebet shoves to "protect" I am fine with that.. but you obvious want to try and drag the other guy too. thats hard because he is inbtween the two of you.

    If either is a NIT or someone you know wont call the raise then I am probably calling behind hoping they catch up..I would definitely bet if I was the preflop raiser as that is the most disguised and you can on this board be certainly called by QJ, Tx, Kx, etc..

    raise a little and pray for a K, A, J ,Q and then a club.. K or A probably the best two cards besides a club..

    Wendy
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    Because you are IP in this hand i think its best to flat here. Why not let the PFR keep betting and have the guy sandwiched in the middle. I think you should wait to raise untill the middle guy folds or the original raiser stops betting. You dont have to put a raise in on the flop in order to get stacks in so just call and bet when anyone slows down. If UTG bets say 75 on the turn and the guy in the middle calls again just flat one more time and get your stack in on the river. The pot will be $~350 and you will have ~1/2 pot left.
  • Dragon-Ash Posts: 203Subscriber
    UTG **over-bet** the pot on the flop, and gets called in two spots.

    Do we really think he's betting out again on the turn into two people?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Dragon-Ash said

    UTG **over-bet** the pot on the flop, and gets called in two spots.

    Do we really think he's betting out again on the turn into two people?
    Thats why I like raising.. I doubt overbettor is just going to fold on the flop and they might put you on just a king and spaz threebet shove.. weeeee....

    I always like to play pretty much opposite that is expected.. that is the best way to disquise your hand.. who knows maybe bozo in middle has something like QJc or Axc spades and will also call off drawing to straight flushes.. then I am hoping there is a jackpot at this casino and I lose..

    Wendy
  • TomBayes Posts: 81Subscriber
    I generally don't slowplay much. Most of our opponents love to slowplay their flopped sets/straights/flushes and think we'll do the same. I like to bet, both to disguise my flopped monsters from ordinary c-bets and because our opponents like to call.

    That being said, flopped quads can be an exception. Often, it's a hand where we need to let our opponents make something to get paid off big.

    Do whatever maximizes your chance of playing for stacks if you know your villains. I'm just calling here if I don't know them very well.
  • SKOOSKOO Posts: 160Subscriber
    I don't mind calling here at all. The flop smacks both of the villains ranges in the face and this is a prime example of letting someone value own themselves. Obviously a raise on the turn would be ideal if more money gets put into the pot by either villain.

    Raising the flop with the stone cold nuts would be a waste of flopped quads IMO
  • StopHammertimeStopHammertime Posts: 81Member
    This is tough because raising here puts a squeeze on the pre-flop raiser, who could very well have a hand like AK on a KTT board. If he's bad, he'll call, but if he's good, he's folding.

    The turn can put a lot of scary-looking cards out there for V1, but those cards pretty squarely hit V2's range. V1 is probably never leading into us on the turn, but V2 might donk into us if a 9c type of card rolls off. So maybe a minnish raise ($60 to $80 straight) here on the flop is best, even though I hate that play normally.
  • StopHammertimeStopHammertime Posts: 81Member
    Dragon-Ash said

    UTG **over-bet** the pot on the flop, and gets called in two spots.

    Do we really think he's betting out again on the turn into two people?
    Doesn't that point towards raising? It suggests he's got a big hand. If he's got KK and we don't raise here, it's a disaster. Edit: That's a benefit of the minnish-raise I advocated for in the previous reply; it re-opens the raising for him if he's got the nut full house right now, but allows him to call if he's got a hand like AK.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    I would raise the flop to $69 and expect both to call.

    If checked to on the turn I am betting $69 again.

    #sexreferencetactic
  • eselspiel Posts: 115Subscriber
    Since you have position, this is one case where I think you can let your opponents have a "cheap" card. Just call. There is a flush and potential straight draw. There's not much better than having an opponent who's drawing dead hit their hand.
    A raise to the overbet on the flop helps defines your hand and allows your opponenents to get away from their top pair hands.
    If anyone has a big hand, you should still be able to get most of the stacks in. Anyone wiht top FH is getting it in.
    If it get checks to you on any street, think about your opponents' range and size your bet accordingly.
  • Dragon-Ash Posts: 203Subscriber
    Txs for all the replies. Just clarifying that I was not in this hand, this is a hand that was the subject of intense debate on another forum.

    My view was that Hero absolutely needs to make a small raise here - I'd essentially click it back - and I think the key is the V2 call in the middle. We have an UTG preflop raise from a competent player, a -flat- from mid-position with the rest of the table still behind him (but he didn't raise, so we can probably rule out AA/KK), then on the flop UTG bets over the size of the pot...and V2 calls anyway, even though Hero is still behind him! And we know that V2 can't have a Ten.

    That looks really really strong. We can put V2 on at least a big draw (if we're really really luck, JcQc!), and given the pre-flop action, I think AK is a huge part of V2's range. He's never folding to just a click-back.

    V1's hand sure looks a lot like 'I haz Aces, it's a scary board and I don't want to get sucked out on', so he's probably going to fold given a call and raise behind him...but he might call one bet. But if we put V2 on a King, we absolutely have to get some more money in now on the flop, before scare cards hit. What if the turn is the 9 of clubs? AK isn't going to put much money in the pot with straight and flush draws on the board. If V2 is on a big draw, he might call a small bet on the turn, but he's not paying us big unless he hits on the river...and even then he might not call if we shove.

    I'd click it back on the flop - maybe make it $65 or so - expect V1 to fold and V2 to call. If the turn is a brick I'd expect V2 to check, and I'd bet the turn, but small, then try to get value on the river, making it look like we busted out on a flush draw. If a club or obvious straight card does hit on the river, we can of course always hope our villain made a hand and will bet it.

    As the hand actually played out: Hero flatted the flop bet. The turn was a King (!), V1 checked, V2 bet out $50, Hero flatted again, V1 folded. River was an off-suit 3 and V2 shoved for like $200+ and of course Hero called, V2 had...AK for a super cooler. I think Hero was massively lucky here to get pretty much the only card on the turn that ensured he got Villain's entire stack without raising on the flop.

    As played, of course, once the King hit on the turn there is absolutely no scenario where all the money doesn't go in on the river, but if villain -had- been on a draw, the King was actually a huge action killer! Even a flush or straight draw isn't putting any more money in the pot when it's obvious Hero has at least a Ten or King....
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