Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

5/5 bet/3bet FD OOP

TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
edited January 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
MP(2000) limp, MP2, CO, BTN(600) limp, Hero(1000) checks J 2 in SB, BB checks. 6 way to flop.
(30) T 9 3 Hero bets 25, MP calls, folded to BTN who raises to 80, Hero raises to 230, MP calls, BTN folds. HU
(570) J Hero bets 325, MP moves AI for 400 more, Hero calls.

MP is older rich Asian lady, plays taggy.
BTN is possibly winning reg, plays loose preflop. Knows Hero as LAG.
Few orbits before Hero flopped top two in the similar scenario and bet big on flop and turn. Hand was shown down.

Is this total spew?

Comments

  • Sean777 Posts: 356Subscriber
    yes?

    you have very little equity vs her range on the flop.

    On the turn, who knows, but I'm not really loving it. You do beat the nut flush draw now, but I think she'll shove that on the flop if she wants to get aggro with it.

    If I were a betting man, I'd say she likely has a flopped set or two pair, maybe slow played AA or KK...something like that. Just wanted to see a non-heart turn.

    I would probably go for a check-raise on that board too if I wanted to play my draw fast, not a bet-3bet. You really are never getting that bet through 6 players on the flop with J2h, and if you're bluffing with a naked jack high flush draw, you want the most fold equity, which is most often going to be a big check-raise on this type of board.

    If I were called on the flop after the checkraise? I'd assume he's got bigger hearts or a very strong made hand. I'm check-folding turn in that scenario if he bets again, if he checks maybe I find a super thin value bet on the river with my pair of jacks.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    edited February 2014
    you have very little equity vs her range on the flop.
     
    But I only know it after she called 230, right? I was pretty sure she will fold to 3bet very often. Is that correct assumption?
    I would probably go for a check-raise on that board too if I wanted to play my draw fast, not a bet-3bet.
     
    Yes, normally I would too, but here I just recently lead strong hand in exact same spot so I thought going for check/raise would look a bit suspicious 

     You really are never getting that bet through 6 players on the flop with J2h, and if you're bluffing with a naked jack high flush draw, you want the most fold equity, which is most often going to be a big check-raise on this type of board.

    If I were called on the flop after the checkraise? I'd assume he's got bigger hearts or a very strong made hand. I'm check-folding turn in that scenario if he bets again, if he checks maybe I find a super thin value bet on the river with my pair of jacks.

    I think you should bet turn on a draw after check/raising flop very often. People love to call your c/r with anything they bet to see what you do on the turn. Cause they put you on the draw and believe that you won't bet turn after they refused to go away on the flop.
  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    I like the C/R OTF as well....but I understand your saying "it might look suspicious" due to previous action.

    With her sitting so deep, ofc that limping range is so wide. I just think there is a lot that beats us....strong made hands (set, 2pair, straight).....at best for us we are probably up against a better FD and one overcard?...if I understand the pot, we're getting 4:1 right?

    Was there anything (thinking back) that was of note on her timing calling the lead out and then the 3B?

    Interested for results eventually....
  • DavidTuchman Posts: 784Pro
    edited February 2014
    I don't love your line. 

    Sounds like this is a typical 5/5 lineup and I think this is probably a bit of a spew. I tend to agree with Sean and prefer the CR on the flop if you want max fold equity. 

    But to me, the bigger issue is the turn. After she calls the flop and you hit your Jack, I don't understand the turn bet. Now you've got showdown value...you aren't getting anything better to fold. Were you bluffing? What exactly were you trying to accomplish with the bet on the turn? 
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    DavidTuchman said:
    I don't understand the turn bet. Now you've got showdown value...you aren't getting anything better to fold. Were you bluffing? What exactly were you trying to accomplish with the bet on the turn? 

    I'm betting for value vs Tx and FD.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    BD_5 said:
    Was there anything (thinking back) that was of note on her timing calling the lead out and then the 3B?

    She called lead pretty quickly like there was no decision to raise or fold.
    Before calling 3bet she giggled and said "well this is the last hand I play anyway". 
  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    edited February 2014
    TDF said:

    Before calling 3bet she giggled and said "well this is the last hand I play anyway". 


    Run!

    Unraised pot.  All this action and she flats in between you guys raising and re-raising on the flop.  You are good a small % of the time here.  Most of the time you are facing sets/2P or 87hh.  And on top of that she give a speech!  She might have quads here (not sure how but wouldn't rule it out... perhaps she was dealt 333 and thinks she can play all the 3's).
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    JCW said:
    Run!
     Wouldn't set raised very often having two opportunities on this flop? 
    On the turn I have 36% equity vs two pair. 
    8 7 is a possibility but it's only 1 combo and I'm not dead vs this hand also.
    Are you suggesting check/folding turn just because she gave a speech? 

  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    Perhaps.  I was kind of joking.  But I do find her actions to be very strong.  Add the speech and I would be very worried.  I would be trying to see a free card myself.  Or hoping she makes a sizing error on turn so I get a fair price on my draw.  You are kind of deep with her.

    She called with the possibility of getting raised again on the flop.  She wasn't calling your 3b only to fold if he 4b.  She is going with her hand.  So I don't think you have a lot of FE on turn.  She had to make a call on flop vs. you showing a ton of strength with someone behind her showing strength too.  I think nearly all of her "weak fits" are blown out on the flop.  The worst she has is open ended/big FD and some of that got there.

    I just doubt that she is in there with Tx after the flop action.  So, yes you picked up some EQ vs. a lot of her range but a doubt you are ahead of most of her range. 

    And the speech does seem very strong to me.
  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    TDF said:
    BD_5 said:
    Was there anything (thinking back) that was of note on her timing calling the lead out and then the 3B?

    She called lead pretty quickly like there was no decision to raise or fold.
    Before calling 3bet she giggled and said "well this is the last hand I play anyway". 


    Timing can be a big tell in spots like these ofc....The standard rec player out there is usually INSTACALLing with the "no brainer draws" or strong made hands

    I think you should "RUN" because of the flop action alone!! Is this TAGGY woman calling that flop action with just a FD and then bluff raising that FD OTT? It's highly unlikely, right? 



  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    edited February 2014
    I bet turn for value. I don't really want a free card cause I'm not sure that my flush draw is good. 
    I don't think I can fold turn having so much equity vs her range.
    #TDF
  • DavidTuchman Posts: 784Pro
    I think betting the turn for value is a bit optimistic. I just think more often than not, she's going to have one pair of Jacks beat. I suppose occasionally she'll have a Ten, but you'll never get value from that hand. So, essentially you're getting value from Ax of hearts...(maybe) 


  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    But even if she folds all her Tx and nut flush draws betting is better than checking, right? There's no reason to give her free card. I think my Jack is good unless she had OESD on the flop. She had two chances to raise on the flop and didn't.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    What do you think of bluff shipping 725 into 570 on a blank turn?

    #TDF
  • Sean777 Posts: 356Subscriber
    I like open-shoving on any turn far better than making the 1/2 pot size bet that you made. It looks massively strong and like you're a fish trying to protect a monster from the flush draw. 

    But I would never play the hand like this up until that point, and I probably would still check-fold even after making top pair if I bet-3bet the flop and got called.



Sign In or Register to comment.