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what would you do?

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I think this was a really interesting hand. especially for hand reading and player typing. This goofy looking guy named Sean is visiting from florida. played on latb on tuesday (was in seat 1) and wears a Koala hat. he says he plays 10/20 nl and has a 200/hr win rate ( total bs imho). But he is a good handreader and plays alot like Harry when he thinks he can either get a big call with the nuts or a big fold with a bluff. He hasnt shoved without the nuts but I honestly dont think anyone is seeing that. Recently he has min bet -four bet all in with the nut straight and gets a tight player to call him with a sucker straight. He has also bluff check raised on an ace high flop with a gutshot to a wheel. Players at the table think he is a fish. I am not in this hand but I thought it worthy of a post.

sean limps a lot of hands and its limped by three players and a tight player in pos raises to 30. this is a 300-1000 5/5 game and effective stacks are around 800. sb who is a straightforward tight player considers threebetting but just calls. everyone else calls 5 way. pot has 150.

Flop comes KcKh9c.

checked around.

Turn Ks

tight guy from sb who thought about threebetting pre now leads out for 50. Sean sees this and says outloud that sb cant have a king and raises to 250. Sean proceeds to talk almost nonstop for ten minutes. I should also say that the sb is new to the table and has not seen Sean play but can see he has almost 3k in his stack. The sb asks to call the 250 and check it down. Sean says no but he will allow each player to show one card and sb can decide what to do. They finally agree and Sean picks 5 club to show. sb shows J of club

what do you think they each have and what is the right line? I will say what happened after we get some responses.

Wendy

Comments

  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    My guess:
    Sean: pocket 5's - thinks he's head of SB's unpaired hand. He comes up with this plan because he thinks showing a 5 is confusing and would induce a call from an unpaired hand.
    SB: JcXc (e.g. AcJc, QcJc, JcTc), which is why he wants to check down the hand OOP. He's getting it in any K or with JJ so I eliminate these. If I were SB I would fold -- he only has six outs to win and four for a chop.
  • You mentioned sb thought about 3betting pre. So i figured his hand is jj a lot of the times. Maybe ajcc, but why would he think about 3 betting anything worse? I could see him asking to check it down, and being afraid of Sean having the king. Does Sean know the sb is a tight player? if not that might change my answer. But with the info I know this is my answer:

    For Sean: his hand pre can be anything. Wouldn't he open with pocket 5s? so that is why i think this: You said he limps a lot so he might be limping k5 or 95. Especially if he is playing down. He might just be messing around and trying to run over the table. I know the odds that he has a king is small, but Wendy said he will make a big bet as a nut hand or a bluff. So, I feel that he has a 9/k or nothing.

    My gut tells me if I had jacks I would ship. Because the odd he has a king is hard and why would he raise with that. Maybe he would call with a smaller fb.

    If I was Sean and the guy calls. I would check most rivers. because once the player calls he won't fold a fb. I would only bet a king or a better fb. If I hit a queen or an ace.

    but this is a weird hand, and honestly I still have no idea how to answer it. that is my best guess.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    So question to everyone.. Have you EVER seen someone talk ALOT when they have the mortal nuts? Talking about that their opponent doesnt have the king? In most cases when someone is telling the other person what they have its a scare tactic.. Trying to get them to fold.. If he had the King why would he be talking trying to get someone to fold?

    This is a live tell folks.. It means he doesnt have the King and he knows the other guy has the better hand.. Seans mistake was showing the 5 clubs.. that means he cant have K5 clubs since that is on the board. .. if he isnt playing K5 suited it would mean he would have to be playing K5 offsuit even for a loose player that might be a stretch..

    when the other player showed the J he 100% had a pair of Jacks.. His play should be to call and allow Sean to try to bet 500 on the river to rep the imaginary quads he has.. sb should not raise as he will get Sean to fold out everything other than a hand that beats him..

    Also Sean recognized that the sb asking to call and then check down is because sb was afraid of his relative strength and didnt want to put anymore money.. He was playing over his head and realized that the 200 more was just for the turn and Sean would probabaly put him all in on the river..

    Sb was toast because he took almost 10 minutes to fold..it really shouldnt take this long..and after it does any decent player would know pretty much what you have and that you are aftraid of the size of the pot.. sb is a pretty typical player.. betting 50 into the over 200 pot because he thinks he has the best hand but its sooo small.. block bet.. so easy for a good player to take advantage of..

    after sb folded ..Sean flipped over his other card.. 6 dias.. he should have showed that card! No K dia on the board..

    Wendy
  • Wendy: I have seen people talk a lot when have a huge hand. I had a player about a month ago do that. He had the nuts and I was thinking about a smaller fb. He said stuff what are you thinking about the flush, and later on said the straight? He did other things and I folded and he had it. I'm not saying it happens all the time, but it can.

    I wasn't sure what Sean's range pre. That is why I said k-5 can be there. I never said he had it. I also thought 9-5. But air was in that range a lot of the time.

    You are right calling and c/ calling river is the better play. Shipping is an over play. I thought maybe get called by a 9. but if Sean is competent then he folds a 9. I can't believe he folded jacks. That is such a weird play, but I had a feeling he would. Mainly b/c of the call/check it down play. Players see their hand and that is it. Great play by Sean. I wonder what happens if he sb calls.


    Cool hand and I am glad you posted it.
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Did the SB turn over the JJs?
    I find it very hard to believe he could ever fold JJs here. If so, he's playing very scared.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    shmed said

    Did the SB turn over the JJs?
    I find it very hard to believe he could ever fold JJs here. If so, he's playing very scared.
    I am certain the sb had JJ. I have played with him many times and he is on the nitty side. afraid to push his stack. It was even more evident when he made such a small bet on the turn when he rightly figured he had the best hand. remember he bet into 5 players and thought about reraising pre. but. he didnt do it because he would be out of position, cant blame him there.

    There are plenty of players who basically play to make a double up and then leave. They are dealthly afraid of losing a big pot when deepstacked and even though they know what they should do the cant do it because of the money. I was one of these folks and know their tendencies very well. They can be bluffed with a higher level of frequency because they will fold almost everything but the nuts to pressure.

    I think talking alot with say the nut straight happens.. But with quads? only a straightflush bears thats and none was possible. Now Sean is a player who puts off this goofy image to get paid but the other tell was he checked flop. He is a good enough pkayer to bet this flop. even if he was second to act.

    It just really came down to the sb chickening out because the money got to him.

    Wendy
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    What a funny hand, wendy!

    And an interesting topic! I just read in a book about poker tells that talking a lot about the key card (here the fourth king) usually means weakness. But from my personal experience, it sometimes means the opposite! I have even found myself once suddenly taking about the fourth card making quads when I had it! And I have seen this from other players, too. So, I am not sure what to make of this tell. Anyone have a similar experience?

    I also believe he folded JJ, without a doubt. There are quite a few scared players like the one you described.
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