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QQ --> Massive overship checkraise

napncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Here we go!

Black QQ MP. You make it 25 on top of one limp at 2/5.

New guy playing his 2nd hand calls from BB. Original limper folds.

Flop is Td9d3c.

He checks. You bet 35.

He SHIPS for 350 more.

uuhhhhhhhh.....I can think of a lot of hands I'm ahead of but I can also think of a lot of hands that have me beat or are drawing pretty good against my black QQ.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. What do YOU do?


  • StopHammertimeStopHammertime Posts: 81Member
    I fold (don't show) and hope that I'm the one that ends up stacking this guy when he makes another stupid play like this one in the next hour. He gets your money this time but he's not going to have it in his possession very long.
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Just fold the first time this happens
    The logic being:
    If he's not an idiot, he's never shipping worse for value
    If he's shipping for value, it's WA/WB and you're way behind
    If he has a draw, you're not a huge favorite

    Of course, if he's known to overplay top pair or medium overpairs this way, then it's an easy call. But unfortunately, players that bad are a rare breed now.
  • chengxue Posts: 6Member
    i would fold two black QQ there. Like claire said if he is shipping for value, u are dead.
    The worst hand he can have that u might do okay with is 10d 8d because u have blocker to the Q. If he has two like AdKd he is ahead. KdQd, he has one over and a gut shot, Qd 10d straight and flush. J9 suited and all sets (maybe not JJ), u basically dead.
    U're just not getting the right price against his range.
  • napncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    Ok, I'm glad to hear you all agree. There's no way I'm ahead of his range.

    I think back to the only time I can remember doing this... years ago at a 1/2 table I went berzerker on my first hand where I was dealt AA.

    So I folded, felt like I was being steamrolled (happening a lot lately). But I'm trying to behave; if I feel bad, I'm probably bad.

    Begs the question: do you call with aces without the ace of diamonds? (if I have the ace of diamonds then he's not shipping with all those combinations of the nut Ax draw)
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    Including Axdd in villains range is a BIG assumption without reads. Live players typically play the NFD passively and unfortunately we can't assume otherwise until shown otherwise. For that reason, I did not include Axdd in my range analysis.

    You would have to call $350 to win $470 which is 1.34 to 1. You need 42% equity to make this call. If you stove villains range as (33, 99+, 910s, 78dd, JQdd, J8dd A10s and half the combos of A10 off) we have 39.5% equity. If you take out all combos of A10 (Which easily could be the case) our equity drops to 30.4%. Without any read I am easily folding QQ here without thinking twice. If we later find villain over plays TP or NFD type hands then this becomes an easy call. Unfortunately, we don't have this information.

    However, if we have AA against the same range (No A10 combos) our equity is 57.1%. If he is not making this play with the combo draws than our equity is 58%.

    With no reads I am most likely calling off AA and folding anything worse.
  • napncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    High five, skinny. I'm glad it seems most everyone is on the same page here.

    You're crushed against his range UNLESS you have reason to believe otherwise. With a guy with whom you have no experience and just sat down, foldy foldy with QQ.

    PS: I saw him do nothing nutso the rest of the session, so odds are, he flopped a set and was trying to get me to lose my mind and payoff.

    PPS: Considering most flop action and the stuff I see at the tables... I find it's probably +EV to get it in with aces on just about any flop if you're 100bb deep or less. There's just too much weird shit going on at the table. Things change on the turn, but it seems there are very few flops where AA isn't still good. I see people overplay top pair way too often. QJ, they flop top pair J and raise your cbet and say "I figured you have AK..."

    Then why are you raising, dipshit? But anyway, I see that a lot. Meanwhile, you hero fold AA or something.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    In spots like this I start to talk to villain, to get a read if he feels comfortable. I might also count the chips for a call and watch his reaction. If I get no reaction, I'll try to get him to show his hand while folding.
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