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CLP Podcast No.71 David Chan on basic 3 bet theory

BartBart Posts: 6,079AdministratorLeadPro
edited February 2014 in Crush Live Poker podcast
This week CLP instructor DC takes the reigns on the podcast for his own take on the variables of 3 betting.

http://www.crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/david-chan-on-basic-3-bet-theory
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Comments

  • YoungGrinder Posts: 210Subscriber
    Great podcast today David.

    I really appreciated this topic being covered. If there's any deeper, more advanced 3-betting material another podcast of this sort would be welcomed.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    Thank you for the compliments on basic live 3bet theory.

    If there is significant demand for advanced live 3bet theory and 3bet pot postflop theory, then I would be happy to publish podcasts on those topics in the near future.

    Does anyone have questions on the basic live 3bet theory podcast itself?
  • AGBAGB Posts: 103Member
    edited February 2014
    Great job David. Enjoyed the podcast.
    Found everything was pretty clear. Just like to make a comment, then a future PC request.

    Obviously live cash and online cash play differently and how 3 betting is applied is a clear example. I orginally came from an online background to Low stakes live poker and quickly came to the conclusion at the time ( and its true for the most part ) that just playing a straight forward TAG value strategy was the way to go. I played this way for along time with success. But....

    Lately I have been playing a somewhat more laggy style ( too simple a term to really describe the change but I hate the term "opening up my game"). Comming from online I feel gave me an advantage when slowly working things into my game the likes of which you discussed in your PC, eg when to profitably squeeze / 3 bet for thin value.

    Like anything these changes have taken experience in the live game and some trail an error to find out what works and what doesn't, what player types to target in what spots ect..

    Although for the most part my game is still straight forward, as dictated by the structure and kind of players i play against, I still feel that these kind of changes have ultimately added to my win rate even at a 100bb cap game.

    I haven't seen you play much but from the forums and CLP ect I assume you don't really play a general run of the milll TAG style ? If applicable I'd like a podcast about your experience deviating from the general value only strategy.

    Cheers.

    AGB.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2014
    AGB,

    I will definitely do future podcasts with lots of hand history examples of how I deviate from the "value only 3bet strategy" in live games. In this particular podcast, I was trying to answer a subscriber's email question regarding 3bet theory to the best of my ability, and I felt that setting up the theoretical framework and identifying common juicy spots for exploitative 3bet strategies was the approach. For those subscribers who are interested in my somewhat LAGGY perspective, I do intend to include many interesting hand history examples in future podcasts.

    FWIW, I tend to push the envelope to the maximum with 3bet bluffs and 4bet bluffs in live games because I have tons of experience in 3bet and 4bet pots. Most LA regs (even subscribers) will joke with me about my being a preflop monkey. Because I have mastered a lot of advanced 3bet theory and postflop play in 3bet pots, I do feel comfortable playing in a lot,of marginal 3bet spots into which I would rarely recommend that my students get themselves.

    Regardless, it will be fun and instructive for me to go over some of my "spewtastic" hand histories in a podcast where I go over my thought process for pushing the envelope with 3bet bluffing. So, you can definitely look forward to LAG (maybe even super-LAG) hand histories and thought processes where I identify and execute juicy bluff spots in upcoming podcasts that I publish.

  • 5DollarShake Posts: 64Subscriber
    Hi David,

    Enjoyed the podcast mate, you're a natural and I look forward to hearing more from you.

    I also have a question;

    If you were playing in a new card room for the first time, once you identified the regs, would you be actively looking for 3bet spots against them early in your session? 3betting light against them?

    I ask this because while I know the object of the game is to maximize your earn against weaker players, as a newcomer the regs would no doubt view you as a weaker player also and thereby get in your way. Is it worth putting your neck out early to indicate to the other decent players at the table that your not going to be pushed around so you can go about exploiting the weak players?

    Or am I over-thinking it too much?
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2014
    5DollarShake,

    Metagame is overrated. 3betting should not be used as a tool to prove to the regs that you are a tough player. You should just 3bet as a bluff as a "random" a little more aggressively because you think that you will good FOLD EQUITY since most people take a "wait and see" approach towards a random.

    If you are perceived to be a "random" in the cardroom, you may be able to 3bet bluff more early in a session because the regs and recreational players will tend to give you more "respect" until they have figured you out. So, you are a small window of opportunity to exploit the regs and recreational players before they adjust to you.

    This is very similar to the idea of sneaking in an early 3bet bluff against someone's LP raise in the first 1-2 orbits of a brand new table. You can definitely mix the two ideas together too.

    Most players (even loose recreational players) will be driving to the casino with the "plan" of playing tight that day. So, at a brand new table that just opened, there is a dynamic where most players will tend to fold a lot to a 3bet in the first 1-2 orbits...especially since you are a "random" that no one knows. (and therefore, they will tend to fold to your 1st 3bet a lot in the first 1-2 orbits.

    After the first couple orbits, however, everyone will start to "forget" about their "plan" of playing tight. At that point, you should probably dial down the preflop aggression and assume that most recreational players and weak regs will call OOP fairly often to 3bets. If you find certain recreational players and regs who tend to fold often OOP to 3bets, then you can target their MP/LP raises for 3bet bluffs.

    By the same token, you probably shouldn't go overboard with 3bets for light value early in the session as a "random." Because people will start off the session by playing fairly tight against the first 3bet from a "random," you are usually just going to fold out dominated hands if you 3bet for light value with AQ/AJ/KQ/JJ/TT/99. Therefore, flatting those "tweener" hands will probably show more profit early on in your session as a "random." Once you have been somewhat active at the table for a while (after the first few orbits), then you can start looking for spots to 3bet for light value because the players will then start loosening up towards you.

    As a sidenote, there is some upside to 4bet bluffing regs early in a session to let them know thta they can't abuse you with 3bets. Usually, I would just prefer to get a better seat than engage in a 3bet/4bet/5bet war with a solid (good) 3bet happy reg to my left though...
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    David:
    Loved the podcast. Nice job. I do have a couple of questions from it. Why do you say don't 3bet someone who will mostly cold call with a hand like 99 if he has 2 overs? I disagree with this. You state its 50 - 50 but its not because its not all in. You're a 2-1 favorite to be ahead on the flop. If you're a 2-1 favorite with position, it seems like you absolutely want to 3b a hand like 99 against 2 overs with position.

    That was my main question (above) which is more important if you can answer it. The other item is you mentioned you want to just call with a hand like AJ in position however heads up the odds a hand like KJ is dominated is only 4% (Chk Wizard of Odds). Thats kindve my agrument too for calling with suited aces trying to beat a lower flush. The odds are so low esp with only 1 or 2 in its kindve a mute mute and hence unprofitable thinking imo. Dominated hands do happen more than flush over flush but you see my point. I brought that up before to Bart and never really got a response on this topic.

    Thanks David, Again nice job. Lot of good info in this podcast.
  • DavidTuchman Posts: 790Pro
    Nice Work Chan ... great insight into live 3-betting from a guy who knows a thing or two about putting pressure on his opponents pre-flop.

    I still remember the first time I played with David. We were in Vegas and i was playing at the Bellagio in a typical soft 5-10 capped game. I was trying to be the table captain and there was this one Asian guy who kept getting in my way. I had no idea if he was any good until later that day, he took me to value town with 2nd pair to the board.

    I've been forced to 4-bet Chan a few times to kind of draw my line in the sand, but he is someone I absolutely hate having on my left and certainly someone we can all learn a ton from.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    DavidChan said:


    Most players (even loose recreational players) will be driving to the casino with the "plan" of playing tight that day. So, at a brand new table that just opened, there is a dynamic where most players will tend to fold a lot to a 3bet in the first 1-2 orbits...especially since you are a "random" that no one knows. (and therefore, they will tend to fold to your 1st 3bet a lot in the first 1-2 orbits.
    epic piece of advice here
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    can you elaborate more on the dichotomy between the reasons squeezing is better than 3-betting 1 guy vs. how everyone is suspicious of squeezes these days?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    guys this is one of the most valuable thing i have learned from Dave and is easily worth a few hundred in every session. most pros wudnt give this valuable of information away. but this sit is different!


    great job David!
    ww
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2014
    Aesah,

    Even though people are suspicious about squeeze plays, they will tend to fold mediocre hands like KJo/66/65s/ATo/A4s/etc. simply because the squeeze sizing is too large for them to justify calling a "large" dollar amount. Live players are Level 1 players FIRST AND FOREMOST, so I don't expect them to become heroic with those mediocre starting hands. We should still get lots of folds preflop because our large 3bet squeeze sizing will overcome their "pain threshold" with those mediocre hands.

    On the other hand, suspicious poker players will tend to get extra-stubborn versus squeezes with semi-strong hands like AQ/AJ/KQ/88-TT because those starting hands are "strong" enough for them to take a stand against our suspicious squeeze play. This is why we can squeeze lightly for value with AK/AQ/JJ/TT against solid PFRs despite the fact that we would sometimes flat-call those hands headsup against solid PFRs.
    by 1Aesah
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2014
    wildncrazyguy said:
    David:
    Loved the podcast. Nice job. I do have a couple of questions from it. Why do you say don't 3bet someone who will mostly cold call with a hand like 99 if he has 2 overs? I disagree with this. You state its 50 - 50 but its not because its not all in. You're a 2-1 favorite to be ahead on the flop. If you're a 2-1 favorite with position, it seems like you absolutely want to 3b a hand like 99 against 2 overs with position.

    That was my main question (above) which is more important if you can answer it. The other item is you mentioned you want to just call with a hand like AJ in position however heads up the odds a hand like KJ is dominated is only 4% (Chk Wizard of Odds). Thats kindve my agrument too for calling with suited aces trying to beat a lower flush. The odds are so low esp with only 1 or 2 in its kindve a mute mute and hence unprofitable thinking imo. Dominated hands do happen more than flush over flush but you see my point. I brought that up before to Bart and never really got a response on this topic.

    Thanks David, Again nice job. Lot of good info in this podcast.
    Re: Wildncrazyguy and 3betting 99/TT versus solid MP raising range

    There are a few problems in your thinking:

    Let's analyze a typical MP raising range: AJo+/ATs+/KQo+/KJs+/99+

    If you 3bet 99 against that range, THE BEST CASE SCENARIO is that you will get called by ATs (4 combos), AJ/AQ (32 combos), 37.5% AK (6 combos), KQ (16 combos), and KJs (4 combos). Against those 62 combos, you will be flipping. Meanwhile, the SOMEWHAT BAD SCENARIO is that you will get called by TT (6 combos) and JJ (6 combos) where you will be in bad shape. On top of that, the WORST CASE SCENARIO is that you will get 4bet by 62.5% AK (10 combos), QQ+ (18 combos).

    Obviously, the SOMEWHAT BAD SCENARIO and the WORST CASE SCENARIO are bad things. Those bad things will happen 30/92 combos for 32.5% of the time. When either of those scenarios come up, we will be lighting money on fire (by either building up the pot against hands that dominate us or blowing ourselves off a profitable set mine when we get 4bet by AK/QQ+). So, 32.5% of the time, we are going to curse at ourselves for 3betting 99. If we are deep stacked (200+bbs effective), the downside of the WORST CASE SCENARIO is really huge because flopping a set with 99 versus AK on A9x flops or versus QQ+ on 9xx flops is so profitable with deep stacks behind.

    Now, let's consider the BEST CASE SCENARIO. If we 3bet 99 and get called by 2 overs, we will probably have the "best hand" on the flop about 65% of the time against 2 unpaired overs (AT+/KJ+). Unfortunately, the "best hand" on the flop doesn't automatically win the pot. If you want to prevent a hand with 2 overs from realizing its overcard equity, then you will have to bet the flop with unimproved 99. 60% of the time, you WILL NOT flop an overpair/set with 99 (28% of flopping overpair with 99 + 12% chance of flopping set). This means that you will be forced to bet the flop with 1 or MORE overs on the flop VERY OFTEN if you intend on preventing a range of AT+/KJ+ from realizing its equity. The problem for your unimproved 99 is that you don't know exactly what overcards that your opponent is holding, so you will not know which boards are safe for you to cbet 99 to "prevent AT+/KJ+ from realizing their overcard equity." Thus, you will often be value-owning your unimproved 99 when you cbet flop against a flopped TP.

    You are also neglecting the fact that there will be flops where AT+/KJ+ flop draws. Therefore, it is way too optimistic to say that AT+/KJ+ will fold to a flop bet 65% of the time (the odds are probably closer to 50% of the time).

    With all that said, it is quite clear that the BEST CASE SCENARIO is only slightly +EV. But it is extremely clear that the SOMEWHAT BAD SCENARIO and the WORST CASE SCENARIO are massively ----EV. Therefore, the significant downsides of 3betting 99 against a reasonable MP raising range outweigh the slight upsides of 3betting 99 against a reasonable MP raising range.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2014
    Re: 3betting 99/TT versus solid MP raising ranges

    FWIW, 3betting 99/TT against a solid MP raiser gets even worse if the MP raiser is a savvy player. If I saw that you were habitually 3betting 99/TT against solid MP raisers, I would start 4betting you with a lot more hands besides AK/QQ+ if you 3bet me (or anyone else for that matter because I might start cold 4betting out of the blinds lightly too). And you are going to cry when you are facing a 4bet with 99/TT because shoving ALLIN preflop or folding to the 4bet will both be bad options for you.
  • DBW Posts: 40Subscriber
    Great podcast David. You mention 4bet bluffing regs early in a session. Can you touch on 4bet sizing assuming: 4x open and 3x 3bet (I.e. $20 to $60 to ???). Assuming 100bb stacks.

    Thanks.
  • eyedunno Posts: 215Subscriber
    Great podcast David! Love the squeezing concept. Question:

    Is squeezing more/less likely to work based on what your current image happens to be or are players not perceptive enough to even consider it?

    Thanks!
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    David:
    Please see my responses (outside of the quotes):
    Re: Wildncrazyguy and 3betting 99/TT versus solid MP raising range

    There are a few problems in your thinking:

    Let's analyze a typical MP raising range: AJo+/ATs+/KQo+/KJs+/99+

    If you 3bet 99 against that range, THE BEST CASE SCENARIO is that you will get called by ATs (4 combos), AJ/AQ (32 combos), 37.5% AK (6 combos), KQ (16 combos), and KJs (4 combos). Against those 62 combos, you will be flipping.
    NOT TRUE. You're not seeing all 5 cards. Only 3 and on the flop unless 2 overcards come you are in good shape to take it down on the flop, esp in position. You are a 2-1 favorite to the flop as your opponent is only hitting his over 33% of the time on the flop.

    Meanwhile, the SOMEWHAT BAD SCENARIO is that you will get called by TT (6 combos) and JJ (6 combos) where you will be in bad shape. On top of that, the WORST CASE SCENARIO is that you will get 4bet by 62.5% AK (10 combos), QQ+ (18 combos).

    Obviously, the SOMEWHAT BAD SCENARIO and the WORST CASE SCENARIO are bad things. Those bad things will happen 30/92 combos for 32.5% of the time. When either of those scenarios come up, we will be lighting money on fire (by either building up the pot against hands that dominate us or blowing ourselves off a profitable set mine when we get 4bet by AK/QQ+).
    First off if the bad scenarios happen 32% of the time and we are 66% favored to be ahead on the flop with position why on earth would we NOT want to build the pot up. I wouldn't call this lighting money on fire. Also you mentioned on the podcast this is the situation where we suspect most of the time our opponents flat our 3b more than 4b.

    So, 32.5% of the time, we are going to curse at ourselves for 3betting 99. If we are deep stacked (200+bbs effective), the downside of the WORST CASE SCENARIO is really huge because flopping a set with 99 versus AK on A9x flops or versus QQ+ on 9xx flops is so profitable with deep stacks behind.
    I'm not convinced worrying about getting blown off of set mining out weighs building the pot with the best hand most of the time. Mayb an argument for what you're sayign can be made there but since you only flop a set around 10% of the time I doubt it.

    Now, let's consider the BEST CASE SCENARIO. If we 3bet 99 and get called by 2 overs, we will probably have the "best hand" on the flop about 65% of the time against 2 unpaired overs (AT+/KJ+). Unfortunately, the "best hand" on the flop doesn't automatically win the pot. If you want to prevent a hand with 2 overs from realizing its overcard equity, then you will have to bet the flop with unimproved 99. 60% of the time, you WILL NOT flop an overpair/set with 99 (28% of flopping overpair with 99 + 12% chance of flopping set). This means that you will be forced to bet the flop with 1 or MORE overs on the flop VERY OFTEN if you intend on preventing a range of AT+/KJ+ from realizing its equity. The problem for your unimproved 99 is that you don't know exactly what overcards that your opponent is holding, so you will not know which boards are safe for you to cbet 99 to "prevent AT+/KJ+ from realizing their overcard equity." Thus, you will often be value-owning your unimproved 99 when you cbet flop against a flopped TP.
    So? I'll take 40% I'm real confident I'm good and 66% chance I am good with position in a bloated time every time. Most of the time I'm confident enough I can outplay my competition in position. One over isn't going to scare me. I can bet and try getting a good read. If I dont 3B real often my cbet is going to work enough to make it profitable.

    You are also neglecting the fact that there will be flops where AT+/KJ+ flop draws. Therefore, it is way too optimistic to say that AT+/KJ+ will fold to a flop bet 65% of the time (the odds are probably closer to 50% of the time).

    With all that said, it is quite clear that the BEST CASE SCENARIO is only slightly +EV. But it is extremely clear that the SOMEWHAT BAD SCENARIO and the WORST CASE SCENARIO are massively ----EV. Therefore, the significant downsides of 3betting 99 against a reasonable MP raising range outweigh the slight upsides of 3betting 99 against a reasonable MP raising range.
    DavidChan February 19 QuoteLike
    Re: 3betting 99/TT versus solid MP raising ranges

    FWIW, 3betting 99/TT against a solid MP raiser gets even worse if the MP raiser is a savvy player. If I saw that you were habitually 3betting 99/TT against solid MP raisers, I would start 4betting you with a lot more hands besides AK/QQ+ if you 3bet me (or anyone else for that matter because I might start cold 4betting out of the blinds lightly too). And you are going to cry when you are facing a 4bet with 99/TT because shoving ALLIN preflop or folding to the 4bet will both be bad options for you.
    Well on the podcast again you were saying what you would do with mediocre hands against people who mostly flat your 3bet. Thats this case. You did mention in the podcast that against people who habitually 4b you should be more polarized which makes sence but that's not the case we're talking about.

    I liked your podcast but dont think my thinking is wrong on this at all. You mention significant downsides and slight upsides. I think its the opposite. There are significant downsides when I have position and most of the time am ahead with position.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2014
    Re: wildncrazyguy

    You can always outplay people postflop by bluff-catching with unimproved 99/TT on flop/turn textures where you expect a Villain to barrel (depending on a Villain's barreling tendencies). So, you get plenty of value letting a Villain keep the initiative as the PFR because he will often bluff flop and sometimes turn with overcards into your pocket pair.

    In many cases, you will actually get more value out of your unimproved 99/TT by bluff-catching against A-high and K-high hands that a Villain is barreling as the PFR than you will by 3betting preflop and trying to c-bet a Villain off his overcard equity.

    Since you keep claiming that you can 3bet 99/TT because you will play postflop well versus 2 overcards as the aggressor in a 3bet pot, you also have to admit that you can play postflop well as the preflop caller by bluff-catching in a 2bet pot against a Villain who will barrel off with A-high and K-high on certain flop/turn textures.

    Except by flatting 99/TT preflop versus solid MP raisers instead of 3betting 99/TT preflop versus solid MP raisers, you avoid the problems of "overplaying your middle pair."

    FWIW, most live players are pretty bad at barreling. It is actually quite easy to make a lot of money by bluff-catching 99/TT selectively on certain flop/turn textures in single-raised pots against most PFRs who are not very skilled at cbetting and double barreling.
  • VernonJones Posts: 179Subscriber
    David
    Very nice job! Would you make any adjustments to what you said on the podcast if the game is capped at 100 bb?
  • VernonJones Posts: 179Subscriber
    Just listened to it again and have a couple questions.
    You say we should not bluff out of position and that we should thin value more because we get called more but I assume you are not talking about bluff squeezes? You can bluff squeeze against loose opening regs like you talked about early in the podcast correct?

    Also when deciding between raising or flat calling AK or QQ you are talking mostly about heads up and that in multi way pots we should 3 bet most of the time unless maybe a nit from EP raises , correct?

    I almost never flat with AA but I do with KK against a mp/lp raiser who I don't want to blow off his hand and sometimes in blinds against just the raiser. Thoughts?

    Thanks
    Vernon
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