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Value bet the river?

chengxue Posts: 6Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hero (LAG) been raising a lot of pot pre and double barreling flop and turn, but he has been looking up light. (has a losing imaged)
Villain (tag) is a older businessman, whom i have played a lot in the past and likes to makes move on me when i raise pre flop because i have a lot of air in my range, just moved over from another table.
Bad player limp utg and villain (mp) limp behind. I (hj) looked down at kk makes it 30 to go. Button, BB, limper, and villain called. We saw the flop 5 handed.
Flop comes: $150
J 9 7 random.
everyone checked to the preflop raiser who bet 105. It got folded all the way to the villain, and he gave me a speech "Why did u bet some much?" took out three 3 white ($100) chips and throw it in.
Now, to most people i would fold right now, but i have played with him before and i have seen him done the same thing with AJ or KJ thinking i'm just cbeting. I called, plus i have position the rest of the hand.
Turn
2 completing the random
He checked and i checked.
River:
Q
He checked. i thought for a long time and i checked behind.
I showed KK and he mucked his hand.

Should i have valued bet the river? If so how much and what kind of hand am i getting called by?
Let me know what u guys would have done at the river with the gave action?

Comments

  • chengxue Posts: 6Member
    btw. i listened to Bart's podcast of "When not to value bet" the night before. That might have affected my river decision of not betting 450 - 560 at the river.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Stack sizes are important here.
    He's not calling 450-560 with a one pair Jx hand like AJ or KJ (barring an absolutely crazy dynamic). When he checks turn and river , you can value bet 250-300 on the river to try to get looked up by a J or another bluff catcher like 9T.
  • I would bet fold the turn and bet the river. SOunds like this guy has AJ and he is not folding. Very rare that you would ever see a double check raise. If you did check back the turn I would probably bet $250-$300 on the river. What type of hand do you think that he check raises and then checks twice?

    Bart
  • LarryLido Posts: 52Member
    Knowing stack sizes is necessary here. Also, this thread is obviously about a nonstandard play since our villain is buff raising/overplaying OTF. The reason you called his flop raise was because you we're ahead of whatever range u assigned this villain. On the turn nothing has changed so I think you should definitely throw out a little value bet (around 1/3rd pot). On the river I'd do the same 1/3-1/4 pot sizing for a value bet.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    Hi Chengxue,

    Next time can you include effective stack sizes and not post results until after there is discussion?

    This is a great hand history. I agree with Bart. In this situation I like to call the check raise on the flop with the intention of:

    1) Calling most reasonably sized turn bets and calling/folding river based on bet sizing. Smaller bets are very indicative of Top pair as they are clueless as to where they are at in the hand but they still want to bet their toppest of pairs.

    2) Bet/folding turn if checked to and betting river if called. The double check raise is incredibly rare by recrational villains on drawy boards because they are so scared of getting outdrawn that they just fire large bets to "protect their hand". I can't remember the last time any recreational player took a double check raise line to be honest. It pretty much never happens. Most of the time you get check raised on the flop for exactly why you described but then once the villain is called they have zero clue as to where they are at and switch to showdown mode.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    agree with everything that has been said. Please also include size of blinds.

    If villain check-raise so light, he might also have some pair+draw type hands in his range, like QJ, JT, T9, 98, etc.
    If you think that's possible, then it's even more reason to bet the turn. You'll get value from those hands on the turn, while they might fold on the river.

    Also, if your read is that villain does not give you credit and your image is bad, you absolutely must bet the turn. You will get called down much lighter. By checking, you appear less likely to be bluffing yourself.
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