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small stakes books

old-dog Posts: 7Subscriber
edited November -1 in Crush Live Poker Articles
Need to rebuild my game from the ground up, listened to most of the old podcast, good stuff. Got the impression that raisers edge might apply to small stakes capped games, 1-2 with a $300 cap. All comments will be appreciated.
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Comments

  • Why do you think a tournament book would help? Try Ed Miller's last few books.
  • StopHammertimeStopHammertime Posts: 81Member
    I'd be interested if anyone has read Dan Harrington's cash game books. I remember Bart interviewed him once and he talked about risk-of-ruin, specifically about most people playing above the blind levels they can safely play at - not because of skill, but because of variance. I've wondered if his cash game books elaborated on how to estimate this for poker professionals and enthusiasts. I thought it might, as I understand Dan has a background in investing and in loans.

    I liked his tournament books when I first started playing - they're great for getting the fundamentals down - but they are pretty dated now.
  • old-dog Posts: 7Subscriber
    thanks Yossarian, I'm looking at excerpts of Play the Player and How to Read Hands I will probably order one or both of them today (any recommendations). Listening to one of the podcast (don't remember which one), I got the impression that capped games played like tournaments because of the short stakes?
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    I liked both of Ed Miller's solo books, loved his book No Limit Theory and Practice with Sklansky (might be my favorite poker book in the past 10 years), think his book with Metha and Flynn Professional No Limit Holdem Vol.1 is worth a read if you aren't comfortable with SPR's and planning hands etc...

    The Harrington books were ok, but nothing special IMHO.

    I also think the original Super System is worth a read. I only own the original version, so no idea what the new one's are like.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    My advice:

    1) Listen to as many of Bart's podcasts as possible.
    2) When you play take detailed notes on ANY hands you are unsure of and discuss them in depth with respected players and/or on the forum.
    3) Ed Miller's books are helpful

    Detailed hand history review is the holy grail for getting better.

    Good luck!
  • old-dog Posts: 7Subscriber
    Thanks guys and ladies, just received Play the Player and brought a deck of cards to play along with the 85 podcasts i have downloaded. Much work ahead. Thanks for your input.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    Depending on your background, you should probably start with basic books and move forward. If you start advanced, you might not get all that you should out of it. I remember you said you were rebuilding.....
  • Ed Miller's latest books are the best I have seen in print. I get the feeling that TwoPlusTwo stopped publishing him because he was giving up too much good info. Probably the worst book I have read on poker is Annie Duke's piece of trash "Decide to Play Great Poker" - I'm not sure if it is misinformation or disinformation or a combo of the two but it is truly terrible.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,391Subscriber
    I would agree that Ed Miller's books are good reads. Should read multiple times.
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    The most important thing to remember when reading books is that you shouldn't develop "rules" or definite lines for any specific situations. Don't let them constrain your thinking.

    Just a few examples how books constrain your thinking:
    They usually say to never open limp, but limping in EP in certain live games with certain hands rather than raising or folding is acceptable and definitely still profitable
    They tell you what standard sizing is, but you don't have to use standard sizing against fish


    I think it was Decide to Play Great Poker that I tried to follow exactly for the first few sessions I played after I read it
    When I first started playing, I developed a "system" based on what I read in books, and that caused me to play very predictably and never adjust. Adjusting to specific opponents is still the most important skill.

    As for the material already mentioned here:
    The Raiser's Edge is one of the best tournament books I've read, but I thought we were talking about cash here
    Harrington's cash books aren't worth much, his tournament books were much better for fundamentals
    Ed Miller's stuff is not bad for practical live play


    Phil Gordon's Gold Book is the latest useful book I've read. One of the less commonly mentioned books worth reading.
  • old-dog Posts: 7Subscriber
    In Barts interview with Matt Afflect they comment that a particular cash game hand plays like a tournament. Has anyone studied Raisers Edge for insight into playing against short stacks of 50 or so bigs blinds? I usually buy in for 150 bb (the max at my casinos) but many opponents buy in for 25-50 big blinds.
    I've played for many years, live and online, with mediocre results (just above break even). Since listening to Bart my results are improving. Biggest gains are from leading out the flop with big hands instead of check raising. I'm getting multi streets of value instead of flop folds.
    Thanks again for your input.
  • HicksDelux Posts: 5Subscriber
    StopHammertime said

    I'd be interested if anyone has read Dan Harrington's cash game books. I remember Bart interviewed him once and he talked about risk-of-ruin, specifically about most people playing above the blind levels they can safely play at - not because of skill, but because of variance. I've wondered if his cash game books elaborated on how to estimate this for poker professionals and enthusiasts. I thought it might, as I understand Dan has a background in investing and in loans.

    I liked his tournament books when I first started playing - they're great for getting the fundamentals down - but they are pretty dated now.
    Try The Mathematics of Poker by Bill Chen and Jerrod Ankenman. Bart did a podcast back on Deuce Plays with Bellitrix about the book. She did a video series on the book. It specifically addresses the topics you are asking about. Be prepared, there is lots of math, as should be expected.
  • BarryHope Posts: 18Member
    StopHammertime said

    I'd be interested if anyone has read Dan Harrington's cash game books. I remember Bart interviewed him once and he talked about risk-of-ruin, specifically about most people playing above the blind levels they can safely play at - not because of skill, but because of variance. I've wondered if his cash game books elaborated on how to estimate this for poker professionals and enthusiasts. I thought it might, as I understand Dan has a background in investing and in loans.

    I liked his tournament books when I first started playing - they're great for getting the fundamentals down - but they are pretty dated now.
    In his "Cash Game Books," Harrington recommends a 20 buy-in BR and stepping up if you add 50% and down
    if you lose 50%.
  • old-dog Posts: 7Subscriber
    Thanks all. Making good progress on my game. I also subscribed to CLP. I play $1-$2 nl, with a $60 to $300 buyin at casinos in the northeast (Atlantic City, Foxwoods, Sands etc.). As I progress I wonder about results. Is there an hourly win rate that would be considered a mark of competency. I hear of players averaging $40 hour at $2-$5. Is $20 per/hr at $1-$2 a good target over 200 hours or so? All comments would be appreciated.
    Thanks
  • terrymaxwell Posts: 31Subscriber
    old-dog said

    Thanks all. Making good progress on my game. I also subscribed to CLP. I play $1-$2 nl, with a $60 to $300 buyin at casinos in the northeast (Atlantic City, Foxwoods, Sands etc.). As I progress I wonder about results. Is there an hourly win rate that would be considered a mark of competency. I hear of players averaging $40 hour at $2-$5. Is $20 per/hr at $1-$2 a good target over 200 hours or so? All comments would be appreciated.
    Thanks
    i find my win rate to be less then half at 1/2 compared to 2/5 over a 100 hour sample. for one the big blind increase not by 2 but by 2.5. plus in most casinos(east coast) 2/5 is going to be the biggest game running except weekends or circuts. i also have found people are more likely to make moves and or gamble it up at 2/5 where 1/2 or 1/3 seems to be grinders trying to build a roll and not give money away(even thought they do because of mistakes). good luck old-dog and keep us posted as u grow your roll
  • Derek Posts: 44Subscriber
    old-dog said

    Thanks all. Making good progress on my game. I also subscribed to CLP. I play $1-$2 nl, with a $60 to $300 buyin at casinos in the northeast (Atlantic City, Foxwoods, Sands etc.). As I progress I wonder about results. Is there an hourly win rate that would be considered a mark of competency. I hear of players averaging $40 hour at $2-$5. Is $20 per/hr at $1-$2 a good target over 200 hours or so? All comments would be appreciated.
    Thanks
    I think you would need 200 to 300 hours to get a good idea of your win rate. 10BB/hr at $1/2 would be a very solid win rate.
  • old-dog Posts: 7Subscriber
    Thanks all, for the input. I'll be putting in the hours. I only play once or twice a week. I'll keep good records for 200-300 hours. The goal is $4,000.
  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 761Subscriber
    old-dog said

    Thanks all. Making good progress on my game. I also subscribed to CLP. I play $1-$2 nl, with a $60 to $300 buyin at casinos in the northeast (Atlantic City, Foxwoods, Sands etc.). As I progress I wonder about results. Is there an hourly win rate that would be considered a mark of competency. I hear of players averaging $40 hour at $2-$5. Is $20 per/hr at $1-$2 a good target over 200 hours or so? All comments would be appreciated.
    Thanks
    I know this topic gets beaten to death on 2+2, and I can never get a straight answer, and I'm not a pro, so take this FWIW, but my life stats since I started tracking 1/1/12:

    170 hours, $30/hr

    Mostly Parx, mostly 1/2 ($300 max buyin), some 2/5 ($1000 max buyin) (34 hours at 2/5). There's also a nice 26 hour run good in Vegas a few weeks ago for $65/hour.

    I think it was Harrington that said if you can beat it for 10 BBs/hour you're crushing it.

    Keep on keeping them stats old-dog, maybe we can start a thread to post stats every 100 live hours so we can compare notes. I only play recreationally so it takes me a while...

    My wife also has me tracking it by day, no surprise, Saturday is crushing the rest of the week.

    But I have so few hours total, slicing the data too much isn't going to prove anything.

    But I'm liking that $30/hour overall closing in on 200 hours; I also feel like I've gotten a LOT better since I started last year, and that just by cutting down mistakes I can keep that winrate/improve it. At least at Parx 1/2 there always seem to fish somewhere, and sooner or later, I can get someone to stack off. Pick up a 200-300 pot, and hang tough the rest of the session, and 200 for 4 hours is $50/hour.

    Roger
  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 761Subscriber
    StopHammertime said

    I'd be interested if anyone has read Dan Harrington's cash game books. I remember Bart interviewed him once and he talked about risk-of-ruin, specifically about most people playing above the blind levels they can safely play at - not because of skill, but because of variance. I've wondered if his cash game books elaborated on how to estimate this for poker professionals and enthusiasts. I thought it might, as I understand Dan has a background in investing and in loans.

    I liked his tournament books when I first started playing - they're great for getting the fundamentals down - but they are pretty dated now.
    If you google mason malmuth poker risk of ruin you'll find a poker risk of ruin calculator, plus the formula you can put into excel to track it.

    Following up my previous post, my RoR is currently at 16%. However I had a wild weekend at 2-5 over Presidents Day where I won 2K on Saturday and donked it all back on Monday. If you throw those 2 results out my RoR is < 1% give my current variance and roll.
  • CruelUltimatum Posts: 160Subscriber
    Derek said
    I think you would need 200 to 300 hours to get a good idea of your win rate. 10BB/hr at $1/2 would be a very solid win rate.
    I'm pretty sure 300 hours is way too low. This has also been discussed a lot on 2p2 and the consensus is around 1k hours for live play.
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