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The Limon Show No.9: Play a Hand with Limon: Robocop II

BartBart Posts: 5,949AdministratorLeadPro
edited March 2014 in The Limon Show podcast
This week Limon gives a rare glimpse into the way that he thinks about playing hands. He takes exception to Brandon's systemic approach in certain spots and proves confidently that poker is all about adapting to different variables. Episode posts at 2:00PM ET.

http://www.crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/play-a-hand-with-limon-robocop-ii
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Comments

  • eyedunno Posts: 215Subscriber
    Limon,

    Really great show. Enjoyed your outside the box approach to the hand in question.

    I'm curious about something that actually became a decent part of my online game 4-5 years ago. Given that the villain in question is a thinking player, the fact that Brandon opens in EP, and villain knows that should be a strong range, doesn't that make a wide 3-Bet bluffing range fairly profitable? For example, based on Brandon's description of villain and villains supposed 3Betting range, it seems he would be folding hands like TT and JJ quite a bit before the flop and if that's true, 3Bet bluffing with hands that have blockers seems like a pretty strong play.

    I saw this scenario quite often in online FR play where a reg opens in EP, I 3Bet an AX, KX, or QX hand from the CO or button and villains essentially folded/4Bet their entire range. In the rare case when they did flat, it was usually a stubborn TT or JJ hand that would have to give up a decent % of the time post flop. Being OOP sucks!!!

    Maybe a simpler way to pose this would be, is Brandon giving villain too much credit in this spot? Maybe all of the above is fairly standard thinking, I dunno...

    At any rate, first part with Brandon was hilarious and this one was very informative, would definitely like to hear more convos with Robocop.

    Thanks!!
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    Kudos to Brandon for being willing to discuss things on air. However, man is his thought process all over the place... He would definitely benefit from some more structured analysis of hands.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Finally! someone who recalls hands worse than me! :wink:

    That said the concepts that you spoke to brandon about are so key. There is NO formula in poker and you have to play differently against different opponents.

    Here the good player obviously thought that brandon was weaker in his raise and took him to what he thought was value town. Brandon being kind of a nit from what I have seen leveled himself into thinking this guy could never do a 3 bet w AQ and three barrel this hand..

    I love the idea of the min check raise on the flop w KK.. Limon is absolutely correct that this player would not all of a sudden fourbet as a bluff.. and since you know very few players will do this you can safely raise and get called by worse.

    Brandon would have bet turn and river and would have felt comfortable his hand was good ..

    ww
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    edited March 2014
    Thehammah said:
    I love the idea of the min check raise on the flop w KK.. Limon is absolutely correct that this player would not all of a sudden fourbet as a bluff.. and since you know very few players will do this you can safely raise and get called by worse.
    This definitely is true of some villains including this villain from the sound of it. There does exist a large group of players from whom this play would induce floats/bluff 3bets a *ton*, so against them, raise-folding would be really, really bad.
  • AbeLimonAbeLimon Posts: 860Member
    OminousCow said:
    Thehammah said:
    I love the idea of the min check raise on the flop w KK.. Limon is absolutely correct that this player would not all of a sudden fourbet as a bluff.. and since you know very few players will do this you can safely raise and get called by worse.
    This definitely is true of some villains including this villain from the sound of it. There does exist a large group of players from whom this play would induce floats/bluff 3bets a *ton*, so against them, raise-folding would be really, really bad.
    i would suggest there is not a large group. the group in my experience is very small and very board texture dependent.

  • AbeLimonAbeLimon Posts: 860Member
    eyedunno said:
    Limon,

    Really great show. Enjoyed your outside the box approach to the hand in question.

    I'm curious about something that actually became a decent part of my online game 4-5 years ago. Given that the villain in question is a thinking player, the fact that Brandon opens in EP, and villain knows that should be a strong range, doesn't that make a wide 3-Bet bluffing range fairly profitable? For example, based on Brandon's description of villain and villains supposed 3Betting range, it seems he would be folding hands like TT and JJ quite a bit before the flop and if that's true, 3Bet bluffing with hands that have blockers seems like a pretty strong play.

    I saw this scenario quite often in online FR play where a reg opens in EP, I 3Bet an AX, KX, or QX hand from the CO or button and villains essentially folded/4Bet their entire range. In the rare case when they did flat, it was usually a stubborn TT or JJ hand that would have to give up a decent % of the time post flop. Being OOP sucks!!!

    Maybe a simpler way to pose this would be, is Brandon giving villain too much credit in this spot? Maybe all of the above is fairly standard thinking, I dunno...

    At any rate, first part with Brandon was hilarious and this one was very informative, would definitely like to hear more convos with Robocop.

    Thanks!!
    ya, brandons ranges were far to tight for a live poker game. but he was there so i had to defer a little.
  • ShadyJ Posts: 29Member
    I think everyone missed the point. Brandons image of himself to other regs is much better then it really is. He kept saying he knows my ep raise then call out of position is strong yet every scare card hit what his perceived range is and villian still value bet him to death with the worse hand.

    I think in his mind he thinks hes as good as the regs and to them hes a fish. Either one that folds the best hand to much or one that calls 3bets oop to much and calls light.
  • ShadyJ Posts: 29Member
    Hes also concerned with making worse fold which is fine if your not folding, but you cant say I dont want to raise him off of worse so Im going to just call to keep his range wide but then fold.
    Im really confused over how villian played the hand unless he thinks Brandon is a giant station because theres really no hand villian is ahead of on river if Brandons not a complete station.
  • AbeLimonAbeLimon Posts: 860Member
    ShadyJ said:
    I think everyone missed the point. Brandons image of himself to other regs is much better then it really is. He kept saying he knows my ep raise then call out of position is strong yet every scare card hit what his perceived range is and villian still value bet him to death with the worse hand.

    I think in his mind he thinks hes as good as the regs and to them hes a fish. Either one that folds the best hand to much or one that calls 3bets oop to much and calls light.
    Brandon is a system player and he does ok against fish, reg-fish and unimaginative vegas nits. a good player who pays attention will exploit him. In a game where you cant play a system, like plo, he is a disaster.
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    Does Brandon have a subscription to this site?
  • JerseyJay Posts: 181Subscriber
    Hey Brandon,
    Thanks for sharing your experiences.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,949AdministratorLeadPro
    OminousCow said:
    Does Brandon have a subscription to this site?
    He does, to the podcasts. But I am pretty sure that he never posts on poker forums.

    Bart
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    OminousCow said:
    Does Brandon have a subscription to this site?
    Yeah I was wondering the same thing.. Limon is spot on again.. Brandon thinks there are certain "rules" to playing the game and there just isnt.. There are standard lines.. but you need to play differently against one player vs another to exploit them.

    A good vegas pro I would imagine would perceive brandon and very straightforward and nitty.. Brandon needs to stop thinking of himself as "one of the best vegas players" and focus on how and what are the best lines to exploit each player..

    The check call line is certainly a valid line but he just has to call the river too.. He has made some other very nitty folds.. almost as if he really isnt hand reading but just playing his hand and the "rule" that bart said you must be beat if someone bets all three streets..

    I think he would get alot out of the forums.. too bad he doesnt feel he needs to..

    ww
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    Yep.

    Folding such a great bluff catcher on the river after having played the whole hand to bluff catch seems really bad to me. Thinking you need AA+ to call on the river seems crazy.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    It seemed to me that He was saying to himself.. I have KK I raised utg and got threebet.. he bet three streets.. He must have AA, QQ or JJ.. not considering that villain has probably seen him make other folds in the same manner.. Also raise a wider range as Brandon even said on the podcast..

    If brandon routinely raises even in ep with hands like KQ or JT or any pocket pair then he was not assigning the proper range to villain.. It certainly matters that villain is a good player and I like playing a value own line against a good player..and I would agree that most good players might shut down on the river with a bluff. but that doesnt mean there are value hands in his range that I dont beat..

    It would have been nice to get a little more backstory on the villain because I would think this guy has played this way against brandon before. Had brandon ever seen him value bet worse for three streets? If so that should make the call alot easier..

    ww
  • laphonso Posts: 70Subscriber
    AbeLimon said:
    ShadyJ said:
    I think everyone missed the point. Brandons image of himself to other regs is much better then it really is. He kept saying he knows my ep raise then call out of position is strong yet every scare card hit what his perceived range is and villian still value bet him to death with the worse hand.

    I think in his mind he thinks hes as good as the regs and to them hes a fish. Either one that folds the best hand to much or one that calls 3bets oop to much and calls light.
    Brandon is a system player and he does ok against fish, reg-fish and unimaginative vegas nits. a good player who pays attention will exploit him. In a game where you cant play a system, like plo, he is a disaster.
    Isn't that what this site does is create system players who can beat fish? I'm not knocking it and I use it but a lot of the material is presented as when this happens it means x and we do y... I think things are often presented in too absolute of terms- however, being a bet-folding tag robot who can game select will beat a lot of poker games- I just am not sure it is how one "crushes"
  • BartBart Posts: 5,949AdministratorLeadPro
    The shear fact that Brandon said "Bart Hanson would say 'always check here,' but what you really should do is bet" demonstrates that he fundamentally misunderstands the most important things that are conveyed on this site. Poker isn't systematic you have to adapt to the variables that are presented in a given situation.

    Bart
  • ShadyJ Posts: 29Member
    Bart Im curious what you think Villian was doing on the river. Value betting or bluffing? It seems he has to be bluffing since he would have to really think Brandons a station to call with worse or he would have to think Brandons image of him is a bluffer which we know isnt true.
    If hes bluffing hes trying to fold out 2 hands aq and KK because AA or a set isnt folding. Both of these (great players) lines confuse the shit out of me.
  • ShadyJ Posts: 29Member
    edited March 2014
    Play this hand with me. 5/10 Hero young Asian phenom they call me the best 5/10 player in Vegas basically Im the Bart Hanson of Vegas.

    Villian young homely looking kid with a high pitch voice. Hes the reg spot at the table plays very ABC poker and likes to hit and run PLO games. Everytime I take a break he follows me trying to talk hands and something about needing a Vegas mentor.

    Villian raises to $35 either utg+1,2,3, possibly hj or co. I have AQ on btn so I 3bet for value knowing this villian likes to check fold alot. I have also noted he will never lead into the raiser in a hu pot.

    Flop q53 or something like that. I know it was q high. Villian checks I bet he calls. Turn is a 4 or something like that. V checks I bet he calls again. River is J. V checks. I dont think he has AA since he would have 4 bet pre most likely plus I have a blocker. We have 2 blockers to qq and aq so I cant check back river since his hand is exactly KK almost always. I'll bet enough that he wont call and he wont raise without the nuts, so if he raises I can auto muck regardless of pot odds.

    I bomb river and he folds. What do you think?
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    ShadyJ said:
    Bart Im curious what you think Villian was doing on the river. Value betting or bluffing? It seems he has to be bluffing since he would have to really think Brandons a station to call with worse or he would have to think Brandons image of him is a bluffer which we know isnt true.
    If hes bluffing hes trying to fold out 2 hands aq and KK because AA or a set isnt folding. Both of these (great players) lines confuse the shit out of me.
    V thought Brandon likely had AQ and tried to bet him off the chop specifically.

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