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KK facing c/r and back raise OTF

Philly Dave Posts: 114Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hi folks. I'm a SOP subscriber and CLP subscriber. I usually post strat questions in the Live Low Stakes forum on 2+2 but I wanted to start participating here.

This is a 1/2 -300 NL game.

I have been playing most of the day. Had run my stack up to 900 but in the last few hours ran into some tough spots and am sitting on 450. Image is TAG and table sees me as "always involved in the big pots" but not winning now. They are still talking about an 800 pot I was involved in a couple hours ago where I got it in with top full and villain binked a 2 outer then mucked face up when he didn't realize he turned an overfull... pot was awarded to him as cards landed face up in muck.

Most recent hand I folded A5s on an AT53 board when tight villain reraised me. I showed my neighbor who then blabbed about it (I know I know) and there was a bunch of discussion about the fold being horrible. Villain had shown TT for a set to his neighbor and when he left a few hands later told his neighbor to tell us what he had.

On to the hand...

Villain 1 ($308) 50 something semi reg. Who I have only played with a few times I suspect he is a losing player. He bought in for 100 then with a 125 stack called a $16 pf raise and donk bet called a shove w/ AT on a a T high flop from QQ. He rebought and has built his stack when he got all in multiway and rivered a flush.

Villain 2 ($105) Late 20's fishy guy. Has been splashing all over with all sorts of hands. Only hand of significance I played with him he rivered a gutshot against my 2 pair When I bet/ bet/ called because he led a tiny bet OTR when he hit his gutter.

Hero ($450) Opens UTG+1 $15 with KK

V1 calls OTB, V2 calls from SB.

Flop ($45) 3s 5s 6c

V2 checks Hero bets $30
V1 calls
V2 c/r all in for $60 more.
Hero contemplates raising but decides to flat. At the time I was unsure whether I wanted to commit against this larger stacked villain on the flop. This point might be worth discussing?

V2 now back raises all in for $203

Hero?

Comments

  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    wow, pretty crazy action!
    I don't really know what to make of the reads/history you provided about the two villains, other than the fact that V2 is a weak player and doesn't get value from his strong hands. Based on this, I do understand why you call the initial flop raise from V2. (Without the reads, this spot is much closer.)

    After V1 backraises, there is about 315 in the pot and another 143 for you to call, so you need around 31% equity. Since his initial overcall is pretty akward, I'd say he has many NFD and pair+draw type of hands (I am guessing that he would raise sets directly on this drawy board, but I am not sure), so I don't see how you can fold here.
  • Philly Dave Posts: 114Subscriber
    whatsyourplay? said

    wow, pretty crazy action!
    I don't really know what to make of the reads/history you provided about the two villains, other than the fact that V2 is a weak player and doesn't get value from his strong hands. Based on this, I do understand why you call the initial flop raise from V2. (Without the reads, this spot is much closer.)

    After V1 backraises, there is about 315 in the pot and another 143 for you to call, so you need around 31% equity. Since his initial overcall is pretty akward, I'd say he has many NFD and pair+draw type of hands (I am guessing that he would raise sets directly on this drawy board, but I am not sure), so I don't see how you can fold here.
    Mistake in my OP V1's backraise was actually for $203 more not $203 total so I'm getting about 2 1/4 : 1

    And yeah I have no problem committing against the shorter stacked villain.

    First question is: Was the roughly 4:1 ish ods laid to V1 after just flatting V2's shove OK to leave or should I just reship right there to get value from v1s draws/possible lesser overpairs?

    Second question then of course is has V1's range narrowed to contain more sets than draws with his second action on the turn. I was feeling like it was sets a LOT but I know we cant see monsters under the bed every time someone shoves on our overpair. As you point out his shove screamed monster but would he just flat sets to my initial flop bet?
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Question 1: I actually like a backraise on the flop. But it is difficult to say if it is better than flatting. Guess it depends if V1 has many suited connectors and suited Ax type hands in his range (would he call a raise to 15 with 76s type hands? Or is the raise so large that he will only call with pocket pairs?)

    Let's assume V1 also calls pre with many suited hands. From my personal experience people are more likely to directly raise sets and two pair and rather flat with draws (he might flat with a made straight in case he has 74s and 42s in his range). Also, after you only call V2's raise, V1 might put you on a draw and raise with 99 type of hands.
    All in all, I like a backraise to give his draws worse odds. Given the stack sizes, you can directly shove OTF.
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