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FLopped flush deep

Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
edited April 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/5nl

$1300 effective

Villain- very bad, super weak/tight. his opening range is AQ+, JJ+. Given what i have witnessed i am just not giving him credit for anything past level 1 thinking.

Hero- good winning image. I am the driving force at the table. This is the most weak/tight game i have ever sat in. Literally all 9 opponents are basically the same player profile. If i don't raise the pot pre flop then it is a limped pot 95% of the time. Given this dynamic i am opening a lot of pots and one and done'ing when i miss and just bet/folding my value hands.

UTG straddles $10 (totally random and the one and only straddle we had all night)
Villain UTG+2 opens to $30
Hero calls with 6 8
Everyone else folds

($70) K Q J

Right after flop peels villain immediately re checks his hole cards.
Villain bets $40
Hero raises to $120
Villain calls

($310) J

Villain checks
Hero bets $225
Villain calls

($760) 3

Villain checks
Hero Bets $325

Ok so my first question. was betting the turn good? why? second question, was betting the river good? why? Also, what about sizing on all streets?

Comments

  • Slingtown Posts: 42Subscriber
    Given your preflop range he has AdKx, AdQx, AdAx, AA, KK, QQ, JJ. It's a spot where we get value a lot but it really depends on villains post flop tendancies which we don't know. Some villains will get aggro with an Ad, some will just call. Some will get aggro with a set here others will check call.

    I'm curious what we've seen if anything from this villain postflop.

    My initial thoughts here would be to just bet flop and turn as played and check the river cause I don't think we are getting three streets of value from Ad with a pair here which because we haven't been raised I am leaning towards this villain having and if villain is trapping with a boat we lose the minimum.
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    Here is the thing, once he bets flop i think i have to remove AdQx completely. He was so weak/tight i don't think he ever bets that hand. Once he bet/calls I am specifically trying to get value from AdAx and AdKx. That said, is my line just way too thin?
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    As far as post flop from this villain it was just more of the same. check/calls for days.
  • Slingtown Posts: 42Subscriber
    Yah I misread the flop action here.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    Bet bigger on the river. That's less than 1/2 pot. AA and AK are probably not folding regardless of whether you bet $300 or $500. If he decides to call, he's going to call. If he decides to fold, he'll fold. The sizing won't make a difference to him if he's a bad weak tight level one thinker.
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    What about flop size? should i have just made it like $220 knowing the absolute bottom of his range is AdKx? or was $140 good?
  • chriswt Posts: 37Subscriber
    I really hate hate hate losing value but given villain's description I might just check back the river. Of all pair + 2pair combos that lead the flop, the only hand that you beat that is calling a river bet is KQ. I think flop sizing can be bigger and I like the sizing on the turn.

    Too weak to check back river here? Maybe, but I'm inclined to do so.
  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    edited April 2014
    I think you could make it slightly larger on the flop, like $140 or so. We don't want to make it too too large, because I think we can get one or two streets out of but after that I like your sizing on all streets. We can bet larger on the turn because he's not going to fold the Ad, and we bet smaller on the river because he probably just has aces up or kings up.

    I'm expecting this guy to get married to any hand he raises PF. If he was a super nit, in that he's not only weak/tight but weak/tight/fold happy, I could see the river being a check back. That just isn't the dynamic I expect against a tight guy with aces.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    larger raise on flop.. when he checks his cards he is checking to see if he has a diamond.. he wouldnt do that if he flopped a set..

    I make the same mistake raising 3x the bet.. he is block betting to try and get a cheap draw.. raise to at least $150..

    when he checks turn bet again.. I would bet around 1/2 pot or a little bit more.. not too much more..

    river when he checks I am squarely putting him on Ad and maybe AA or as you were saying AK AQ etc... maybe AJ.. at most one pair hand.. I am inclined to bet rather small .. same amount he called on turn might get a hero look up..

    now if you think he raising with a hand like AdT.. then i would bomb the river if I dont think I get looked up lightly.. here you would have a situation where he has a polarized calling range .. when he calls he will call any bet.. and fold the vast majority of the time.

    ww
  • afiguy357 Posts: 99Subscriber
    I like betting the river smaller. Even if he has a straight he might fold to a big bet because of your line. Monotone boards force people to think about your hand, even if that thinking starts and stops at "does he have the flush"

    Remember, most live players think of bet size in absolute size, not relative. In most 2/5 games a $300+ bet is a big bet. Typical players only make big bets with big hands, so he is going to think you have a big hand with that bet, which is bad for us.

    I dislike "same betting" on principle alone, so I would probably bet like $250.

    I think a common leak for players like us (training site subscribers, generally decent thinking players) is sizing river value bets too big. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I think you're bluffing, but I fold" when I hold the nuts.
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    Ok thanks guys. I think the mistake i made was my flop sizing. Should have been bigger. Anyway, this kid tanked for about 30 seconds and called. I triumphantly turned over my hand thinking it was the nuts and he goes, "Oh, I have a full house." and shows QQ.

    Never be too careful i guess lol
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    larger raise on flop.. when he checks his cards he is checking to see if he has a diamond.. he wouldnt do that if he flopped a set..

    .

    ww
    This is exactly what went through my head. I really thought he had AdAx or AdKx a large % of the time.
  • electricsheep Posts: 169Subscriber
    lol slow roll?
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    electricsheep said:
    lol slow roll?
    Honestly I think he was genuinely scared that i had him beat...somehow.
  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    Probably didn't realize that the board had paired.
  • Defacist Posts: 131Member
    edited April 2014
    What's interesting to me about this hand is that he doesn't seem to think the turn helped him. Why is that? When you raised the flop was he giving you credit for a straight flush or a set of kings? Or did he not realize the board paired on the turn?
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    afiguy357 said:


    I think a common leak for players like us (training site subscribers, generally decent thinking players) is sizing river value bets too big. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I think you're bluffing, but I fold" when I hold the nuts.
    People think like this because they aren't used to seeing larger bets. If you start betting larger with your hands, people will get used to it. Mathematically, I highly doubt that betting 1/2 pot versus 3/4 pot would cause that high of a drop in ev since we win more when we get called, even if we get called slightly less often.

    An overbet jam would be a different story.

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    At least he isnt folding a fullhouse :oops:
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