Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

(Hand 1 of 3) Am I nuts?

Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
edited April 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/5nl

$800 effective

Villain- young, white, reg. my opinion of him is that he is spewy with a major case of fancy play syndrome. he gets pretty sticky at times and loves to float. I am really unsure as to whether or not he thinks past his own hand but i am inclined to say that he does not.

Hero- good winning image but extremely active. To the point that when i got up to get lunch for 40 minutes, upon my return, a player exclaims, "thank god you are back, we have not had a raised pot since you left."

Hero opens K 7 in CO to $25
Villain calls in BB

($50) J J 3

Villain checks
Hero bets $35
villain calls

($120) 5

Villain bets $60
Hero raises to $180
Villain thinks for a while and calls

($480) A

Villain pretty quickly bets $300
Hero?
«1

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    So my first question is if you know this guy is sticky and likes making fps plays why are you cbet bluffing? Yes its hard for him to hit this but he isnt folding.. I would switch up my play in these spots to just go for value with a player like this.

    You want to cbet bluff when a player is going to fold not when a player is either going to make a weird raise or just call you down..

    His play on the turn is again either a block bet or he has a Jack and doesnt want to get it checked through.. I am just folding..

    ww
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    One thing i should add is that i do not think this villain is capable of betting an Ace on the river for value.
  • Defacist Posts: 131Member
    edited April 2014
    I'm folding this one. He could very well be betting a busted flush draw, but some busted flush draws "got there" on the river: Ax of clubs and 2c4c. You say he won't bet an ace for value; will he really never do that? And is 24 soooted in his preflop call range from the BB? Seems like it probably is. Slowplayed J is a possibility here as well, if not super likely. I think there are also a bunch of pocket pairs in his range. He could be bluffing, but you don't even have the nut no-pair; a stronger king is totally possible. I don't think you have enough behind for an effective bluff raise, so to me it's call or fold. The pot is laying you about 2.5 to 1. Are you good more than 40% of the time here? (edit: I know it's actually 2.6 to 1 and the amount of time you'd have to be good would be about 39%, but close enough.)

    To answer your question, I don't think you're nuts. I'm just curious to know your thinking behind the turn raise. Not because I'm trying to criticize, but because I'm trying to learn. Thanks!
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    I raised the turn because i believed a huge part of his c/c flop, lead turn range was pairs that he thought were good and draws that he is trying to set a price for.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Collecting_Tax said:
    I raised the turn because i believed a huge part of his c/c flop, lead turn range was pairs that he thought were good and draws that he is trying to set a price for.
    So question? Had you seen him fold to a raise like this before.. ie he finally gives you credit for a pair bigger than his? If so then I like your raise alot as I had described his lead as a block bet.. BUT if he still wont fold then I think you just give up.. if you dont have any fold equity then just dont bluff the donkey...

    ww
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,399Subscriber
    No sense in raising the turn once you been called on the flop and donked on the next street. He is never folding a J or his pairs.
  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    I don't mind the c-bet. Even if he is sticky, he has to have something to call on the flop. On this texture, he has a lot of hands that have no pair and no draw.

    On the turn, I think you correctly assessed his range - medium pairs and draws that want to set a price. I disagree with your raise, however. You said he's sticky...he's not folding anything he's betting here, other than a pure air reverse float. If you had some equity, maybe you could talk me into raising to get rid of his reverse floats, but you don't even beat a lot of his flush draws.

    As played, on the river, you have to be very, very confident that this guy will fire $300 as a bluff to make this call, even getting 2.75:1.

    - He could be taking a line that doesn't make any sense with a monster
    - He could be making a weird bet with a single-pair ace
    - He has some number of busted flush draws (KQ, KT, K9, K8 if he calls that light pre-flop) that we lose to; our hand is not the same hand as KQ if he is bluffing.

    Would a call here be reasonable in theory? Yes. But the guy has to be both predictable and capable of firing a "large bet" bluff. I think the spazz factor and the relative weakness of our bluff catcher make this a fold in my eyes.

  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    Collecting_Tax said:
    I raised the turn because i believed a huge part of his c/c flop, lead turn range was pairs that he thought were good and draws that he is trying to set a price for.
    So question? Had you seen him fold to a raise like this before.. ie he finally gives you credit for a pair bigger than his? If so then I like your raise alot as I had described his lead as a block bet.. BUT if he still wont fold then I think you just give up.. if you dont have any fold equity then just dont bluff the donkey...

    ww
    Yes i have definitely seen him release when pressure is put back on him.
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    Arenzano said:
    No sense in raising the turn once you been called on the flop and donked on the next street. He is never folding a J or his pairs.
    That was the thing. I dont ever think he has a Jack with this line. Also, He may not fold a small pair to the turn raise but he would to river bets.
  • Defacist Posts: 131Member
    I'm going to hazard a guess that you called and won this pot, and if he showed down, he probably showed something like QTc.

    If that's the case, I commend you for questioning your play on a hand that you won. And I still think it's a fold. You say you raised turn because a big part of his range is pairs and flush draws. The pairs beat you and so do a lot of the flush draws (all the ace highs, many of the king highs, 5Xc and 4c2c).
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    Tyrith said:
    I don't mind the c-bet. Even if he is sticky, he has to have something to call on the flop. On this texture, he has a lot of hands that have no pair and no draw.

    On the turn, I think you correctly assessed his range - medium pairs and draws that want to set a price. I disagree with your raise, however. You said he's sticky...he's not folding anything he's betting here, other than a pure air reverse float. If you had some equity, maybe you could talk me into raising to get rid of his reverse floats, but you don't even beat a lot of his flush draws.

    As played, on the river, you have to be very, very confident that this guy will fire $300 as a bluff to make this call, even getting 2.75:1.

    - He could be taking a line that doesn't make any sense with a monster
    - He could be making a weird bet with a single-pair ace
    - He has some number of busted flush draws (KQ, KT, K9, K8 if he calls that light pre-flop) that we lose to; our hand is not the same hand as KQ if he is bluffing.

    Would a call here be reasonable in theory? Yes. But the guy has to be both predictable and capable of firing a "large bet" bluff. I think the spazz factor and the relative weakness of our bluff catcher make this a fold in my eyes.

    Yup I agree with you on your as played analysis and i mucked pretty quickly on the river. He promptly showed me T 7 . This is what really got me thinking and i wished i took a little more time with it.
  • Defacist Posts: 131Member
    Collecting_Tax said:
    Tyrith said:
    I don't mind the c-bet. Even if he is sticky, he has to have something to call on the flop. On this texture, he has a lot of hands that have no pair and no draw.

    On the turn, I think you correctly assessed his range - medium pairs and draws that want to set a price. I disagree with your raise, however. You said he's sticky...he's not folding anything he's betting here, other than a pure air reverse float. If you had some equity, maybe you could talk me into raising to get rid of his reverse floats, but you don't even beat a lot of his flush draws.

    As played, on the river, you have to be very, very confident that this guy will fire $300 as a bluff to make this call, even getting 2.75:1.

    - He could be taking a line that doesn't make any sense with a monster
    - He could be making a weird bet with a single-pair ace
    - He has some number of busted flush draws (KQ, KT, K9, K8 if he calls that light pre-flop) that we lose to; our hand is not the same hand as KQ if he is bluffing.

    Would a call here be reasonable in theory? Yes. But the guy has to be both predictable and capable of firing a "large bet" bluff. I think the spazz factor and the relative weakness of our bluff catcher make this a fold in my eyes.

    Yup I agree with you on your as played analysis and i mucked pretty quickly on the river. He promptly showed me T 7 . This is what really got me thinking and i wished i took a little more time with it.
    Ah, so I was wrong about you winning the pot. Anyway, don't kick yourself. Regardless of the previous action I don't think there's any reason to question your river fold too much. At least he showed and gave you some free information!
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    Defacist said:
    [quote="Collecting_Tax"]



    Ah, so I was wrong about you winning the pot. Anyway, don't kick yourself. Regardless of the previous action I don't think there's any reason to question your river fold too much. At least he showed and gave you some free information!
    yea and this is where this whole thing leads to (hand 1 of 2) over pair facing heat. was this a set up? or am i just totally leveling myself?
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,845Subscriber
    Couldn't we go for one of those delayed bluff raise lines on river here? The 5 doesn't change much. He's not Folding any hand on turn to a raise that won't fold to a river bet. We also get the same info and if he is bluffing then he might fire smallish again on river setting us for perfect spot to bluff raise river.

    This is of course your read is right and he doesn't have a J and he could be showing up really wide in these spots. If he has a hand like 66 or 44 more then likely he's going to be up against 2 overs as well.
  • fishcake Posts: 962Subscriber
    I think the cbet is fine but I'd fold the turn. He can have a flush draw but also has plenty of pocket pairs and Jacks that don't want to check the turn. You also don't even beat all flush draws and he's never folding anything when you raise turn. As played, I'm folding river.

  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,845Subscriber
    As played id def. fold river and probably just give up turn and not think too much about it unless I got some read he's weak and i could steal on river.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    I don't like a cbet against this guy if he is sticky and has FPS. We have no barreling equity other than just pairing our hand. There are so many better hands we can choose to put in our cbetting range. Since we're in the CO, we should have a ton of off suit broadways with overs+backdoor flush draws. We could also cbet any flush draw, low pairs (especially if you think he's peeling ace high). I just don't think this hand makes a lot of sense.

    That said, a cbet is only a small mistake since he should have a hard time defending a lot of his range if he calls a lot if garbage OOP like a lot of these types of guys do. But continuing when he leads into when you have no equity is just plain spew. I would not cbet the turn if he checked and certainly wouldn't raise his lead. This is a classic case of FPS on your own part.

  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    DrGambol said:
    I don't like a cbet against this guy if he is sticky and has FPS. We have no barreling equity other than just pairing our hand. There are so many better hands we can choose to put in our cbetting range. Since we're in the CO, we should have a ton of off suit broadways with overs+backdoor flush draws. We could also cbet any flush draw, low pairs (especially if you think he's peeling ace high). I just don't think this hand makes a lot of sense.

    That said, a cbet is only a small mistake since he should have a hard time defending a lot of his range if he calls a lot if garbage OOP like a lot of these types of guys do. But continuing when he leads into when you have no equity is just plain spew. I would not cbet the turn if he checked and certainly wouldn't raise his lead. This is a classic case of FPS on your own part.

    Yup you may just be right.
  • grindbler Posts: 131Member
    edited April 2014
    opponent is sticky and this line is profitable "why?'.

    in a word, 'yes', you are nuts.

    remember the Limon theorum? ("I stole my dads car, picked up some hookers and blow, got wasted, and plowed into a convenience store; now i'm in jail... now what do i do??")
    your river decision is meaningless.
    your early street decisions are where you went wrong vs. opponents tendencies/ your history- image.
    you are asking the wrong question 'hero?' on the river...
  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    DrGambol said:
    I don't like a cbet against this guy if he is sticky and has FPS. We have no barreling equity other than just pairing our hand. There are so many better hands we can choose to put in our cbetting range. Since we're in the CO, we should have a ton of off suit broadways with overs+backdoor flush draws. We could also cbet any flush draw, low pairs (especially if you think he's peeling ace high). I just don't think this hand makes a lot of sense.
    If we aren't c-betting this board with air, what board are we going to c-bet? He has a lot of his range that is unpaired cards without an ace, but I seriously doubt he's going to let us realize our high card showdown value by checking it down. He might also fold some crappy Aces here. We need to bet to get him to fold out his equity.
Sign In or Register to comment.