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preflop spot: AK is the nuts, right?

chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
live 5/5nl. $300-1000 at the bike.

hero probably has a crappy losing image due to card deadness and being outdrawn in a couple of decent sized pots and also bet/folding a flush (though nobody saw it) on a paired board on the river to an old nit who showed a complete bluff on the river, which was seriously a shocker.

villian 1 is pretty new to the table -- young-ish asian/filipino guy. 1 hand of history: i posted in the CO and he limped along on the button. BB raised to $20, 3 callers ahead of me, i call, he calls. flop is K63r. checks around. turn is 7h. checks to me, i make a stab of $65, villian 1 calls. river is 8o. i bet $165 with stone cold air, he calls with K2o.

villian 2 is kanuck who has played on LATB several times and plays in some big-ish NL games. he is a very aggressive player who squeezes light and often (though probably much moreso in position). he is also relatively new to the table (but did see me try to bluff villian 1 about 20 mins earlier).

hero ($580) raises UTG to $25 with AKdd. villian 1 calls next to act. folds to villian 2 (kanuck) who 3bets to $125. hero?

1) ships?
2) folds?
3) 4bets small to iso / induce a spazz from kanuck?
4) calls? (i almost forgot about that option)

Comments

  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Stack sizes:
    Villian 1: $540 (min bought, and won 1 hand v me with my bluff)
    Villian 2: $900 (max bought, iso'ed a shorty all in pre with 88, lost and topped off)
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    With your description of Villain2, might first thought is that I am never folding this hand pre. Second, due to stack sizes, 4betting small doesn't really make sense. A small 4bet would be at least 250, so you have around 40% of your stack in. Also, it should be obvious to V2 that this is not a bluff, so hill will fold most of air.

    All in all, it becomes a decision between shoving and flat-calling to keep the weak guy in and underrepresent your hand (V2 will represent the very cards which you hit, and your range looks more like medium pocket pairs).

    I think flatcalling has definitely some merit IF V2 is truly aggressive. That being said, there are some downsides, of course. In order to makes this play EV, you absolutely have to be prepared to NOT fold most boards, even if you dont hit it. You have to either call down or preferrably semibluff a decent amount, basically every board with a gutshot or BDFD (you always have overcards as well). This means your variance will go up the roof. It also could be a great play for image and metagame purposes, if you are going to play with villain2 more often (but metagame should never be a reason to make a -EV play).

    The more standard and easier play would be to shove, and there's definitely nothing wrong with that. It might actually be the most +EV play.
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Against him with just over 100BB, 4-bet or ship seems pretty standard. Call it a cooler if you're against AA or KK

    Sometimes 4-betting small has more fold equity psychologically. When a lot of people have AA/KK, they 4-bet small to try to induce action, but when they have AK, they shove.

    If you shove, then your hand looks more like AK, so if he has something like JJ, he's probably calling without much though
  • Kanuck is always bluffing when he 3 bets. Even more so than David Chan. With that being said he is too good of a player to flat from OOP. Hes not going to do anything too stupid after you call so I would just hold your breathe and get it in. Its not that bad if he only calls with better (there is enough dead money out there). You might also get him to fold hands like TT-QQ.

    Bart
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Sorry - this was kind of an important detail: kanuck (V2) is in the BB.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Claire said
    Sometimes 4-betting small has more fold equity psychologically. When a lot of people have AA/KK, they 4-bet small to try to induce action, but when they have AK, they shove.

    If you shove, then your hand looks more like AK, so if he has something like JJ, he's probably calling without much though
    I agree.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Bart said

    Kanuck is always bluffing when he 3 bets. Even more so than David Chan. With that being said he is too good of a player to flat from OOP. Hes not going to do anything too stupid after you call so I would just hold your breathe and get it in. Its not that bad if he only calls with better (there is enough dead money out there). You might also get him to fold hands like TT-QQ.

    Bart
    I thought we are in position? If we are OOP, what I said earlier about flatcalling goes out of the window.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Just to clarify:
    Hero is utg
    V1 is utg+1
    V2 is BB
  • edog Posts: 43Member
    Ok Chili, You got Kanuck two seat to your left, I am probably changing seats and avoiding the headaches. Saw him 3-bet 2-7 off in the blinds the other day on LATB. His 3 bet range as you know is very wide.

    After you call, raise or shove, the pot is at least $275, if V1 folds. Our stack is $455.

    I would rather fold than call. If I hit a pair on the flop maybe I can get my stack in donking or check raising. If I miss things get sticky with my stack size. I don't want to bet fold or check fold the flop to a player like Canuck when he 3 bets me preflop. That is like chumming the water. I am going to avoid the calling scenario by folding preflop.

    I don't think I am 4 bet shoving preflop $565 into a $175 pot, even though it is probably +EV against his range. When called I would be betting $565 to win $740. 1.3 to one. I would have to be getting 2.3 to 1 for the play to be profitable. Against a pair we are pretty much ok, except against AA or KK.. But we probably have a lot of fold equity against his range of garbage hands that he would fold to a preflop shove. A 4 bet shove does have the advantage of sending a message to light 3 betters.

    I probably give up my $25 preflop raise and change seats and look for a better spot in position. With your remaining 135 BBs stack you can make a lot of moves potentially while comfortably in position.

    P.S. I not sure I would ever 4 bet small because I can't think how I would continue thereafter.
  • edog Posts: 43Member
    Just read that Kanuck was in the Blinds. I would have to rethink my post, you guys can disregard it for now.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Claire said

    Against him with just over 100BB, 4-bet or ship seems pretty standard. Call it a cooler if you're against AA or KK

    Sometimes 4-betting small has more fold equity psychologically. When a lot of people have AA/KK, they 4-bet small to try to induce action, but when they have AK, they shove.

    If you shove, then your hand looks more like AK, so if he has something like JJ, he's probably calling without much though
    This is true. Last night I opened to $25, got 1 caller, then the action player in the BB shipped for $265. I tank called with AA and the third player shipped for $275 total (a $10 raise). The over shipper had AKcc and the guy who called off his stack had 9Tdd. I was drawing dead on the turn to 9T's Queen high straight. As limon would say , the good news is he'll be making that play again.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Results below:








    I shipped in tempo pretty confident I would win the pot pre. Much to my surprise, they both called! I flopped a King, which made me kinda happy, but still unsure. Kanuck didn't want to table his hand after the river and neither did the utg+1. Kanuck finally opened QQ, I opened AK, and the third player finally opened AA for the win. I definitely felt like he slow rolled the river.
  • StopHammertimeStopHammertime Posts: 81Member
    I think shipping is right. It also might have the benefit of slowing him down from doing this in future spots... though once I read his name, I recognized it from Bart's podcasts...
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