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QQ 275BB. 1/2 Venetian

Jseeley Posts: 48Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Villain is an unknown. Looks under 24. I just table changed. No real reads. Deep stack tourneys are going on right now. Lots of bad play deep from these players.
Hero has villain covered.

Hero in mp, opens to $12 with QQ
Villain on button 3 bets to $35
Hero 4bets to $120
Villain tanks and calls.
($240)
flop 663
Hero?

Comments

  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Effective stack sizes would help analyze the hand. Edit: I missed the title - so you have $550 Effective stacks... doesn't change my thinking here.

    After you 4-bet most villains would shove with AA KK, and you are ahead of virtually everything else he might reasonably have. I like checking (Bart has discussed this recently) and inducing a shove by him with worse. Alternatively, you could lead shove here. If it's AA KK, oh well.

    Are you sure you are not in a deep stack tourney yourself? :)
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    Based on your description of the hand so far, without any reads on the villain, I think it makes sense to lead out here. You are out of position,and have the lead in the hand, and the villain's range in my mind is limited to TT+, AQ,AK. Maybe KK+. I think leading for about $180 will give you a better idea of where you are in the hand and you don't want to get yourself in a tricky spot if a bad card peels - Aces or Kings.
  • Brudre21 said

    Based on your description of the hand so far, without any reads on the villain, I think it makes sense to lead out here. You are out of position,and have the lead in the hand, and the villain's range in my mind is limited to TT+, AQ,AK. Maybe KK+. I think leading for about $180 will give you a better idea of where you are in the hand and you don't want to get yourself in a tricky spot if a bad card peels - Aces or Kings.
    I agree with the action, but I disagree with the "will give you a better idea of where you are in the hand" part. If he calls he has 250 behind and there is 600 in the pot. If he shoves over you you would have to risk 250 to win 850 and you are crushing his range. I would probably bet out 200 and call if he shoves, and if he didn't I would bet out on the river.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I agree with flatcalling the 3bet, even though it sucks OOP. But other options are likely worse here.

    On the flop, I'd start with a check....
    Subsequent action highly depends on his betsizing, behaviour, timing, etc.
    I think check-calling, check-folding and check-raising are all valid options here, depending on the above.

    What are the merits of leading the flop?
    I can see that it would be a good play against some specific villains, but we have no reads.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    I would lead flop and call off a shove. AA would never just flat the 4 bet, and most people will ship in pre with KK in this spot as well. You are crushing his range (1010+, 1/2 the combos of AKo and all combos of AKs). I think that checking this flop would be disastrous, as villian will always check behind with 1010 and JJ, thinking that we have an overpair. If scare card comes on the turn, we are never getting any more money from him unless we're beat. However, many villians will call a lead on the flop as it is a "safe" flop for 1010 and JJ.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    whatsyourplay? said

    I agree with flatcalling the 3bet, even though it sucks OOP. But other options are likely worse here.

    On the flop, I'd start with a check....
    Subsequent action highly depends on his betsizing, behaviour, timing, etc.
    I think check-calling, check-folding and check-raising are all valid options here, depending on the above.

    What are the merits of leading the flop?
    I can see that it would be a good play against some specific villains, but we have no reads.
    sorry, I misread the hand. My comments are related to a scenario where we flat the 3bet.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Wackabrew said

    I would lead flop and call off a shove. AA would never just flat the 4 bet, and most people will ship in pre with KK in this spot as well. You are crushing his range (1010+, 1/2 the combos of AKo and all combos of AKs). I think that checking this flop would be disastrous, as villian will always check behind with 1010 and JJ, thinking that we have an overpair. If scare card comes on the turn, we are never getting any more money from him unless we're beat. However, many villians will call a lead on the flop as it is a "safe" flop for 1010 and JJ.
    I strongly disagree. Given these stack sizes, I would flat the 4bet with AA in position very often, since 5betting looks just so insanely strong. The SPR will be so low that it's going to be very easy to get the rest of the stacks in.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    whatsyourplay? said
    Wackabrew said

    I would lead flop and call off a shove. AA would never just flat the 4 bet, and most people will ship in pre with KK in this spot as well. You are crushing his range (1010+, 1/2 the combos of AKo and all combos of AKs). I think that checking this flop would be disastrous, as villian will always check behind with 1010 and JJ, thinking that we have an overpair. If scare card comes on the turn, we are never getting any more money from him unless we're beat. However, many villians will call a lead on the flop as it is a "safe" flop for 1010 and JJ.
    I strongly disagree. Given these stack sizes, I would flat the 4bet with AA in position very often, since 5betting looks just so insanely strong. The SPR will be so low that it's going to be very easy to get the rest of the stacks in.
    I see your point for sure, and that is probably a play that I would make to mix it up with really deep stacks against opponents that I know are good players. I will say though, that, at least at the 1/2 games that I play in, people are just never folding when they 4-bet. Your average 1/2 player just isn't good enough to fold even KK to a 5 bet, even though at 1/2 a 5-bet is always AA. In a a game where there is familiarity amongst the players mixing it up is always a good option, but when I have unknowns at my table, I'm always trying to get it in pre-flop with AA.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Ok, makes sense. I agree that with these stacksizes, hardly anybody 4bet-folds at these levels, so this is a rather theoretical discussion.

    Anyways, what do you guys think about hero's 4bet with QQ? Isn't that basically overplaying your hand? I would rather flat, but am not sure what's best vs this villain.

    As played, definitely lead flop. Checking just leaves you in the dark, and you get no information about how to proceed on later streets. However, there are not many worse hands that can call, and no better hand will fold. This is why I would rather flat pre to give villain a chance to make a mistake, instead of playing perfectly against us.
  • Jseeley Posts: 48Member
    Results:
    I Bet $180
    Villain tanks and tanks and tanks.
    Villain goes all in.
    I snap call.
    Villain says, "you have AA?"
    Turns over KK

    Whatever, nice hand.
    If he would have told me I flatted so I could get it in with JJ-QQ etc. I would say nice play.
    But he told me he put me on AA and almost folded pre and then flop. It just shows how bad people play when "alot" of money is going in the pot. If you put me on aces why would you call? And if you call and the flop comes as it did, why are you ever thinking of folding? Did he really call thinking he only had 2 outs or was he just scared of lossing the money? Nice hand sir.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Jseeley said

    Results:
    I Bet $180
    Villain tanks and tanks and tanks.
    Villain goes all in.
    I snap call.
    Villain says, "you have AA?"
    Turns over KK

    Whatever, nice hand.
    If he would have told me I flatted so I could get it in with JJ-QQ etc. I would say nice play.
    But he told me he put me on AA and almost folded pre and then flop. It just shows how bad people play when "alot" of money is going in the pot. If you put me on aces why would you call? And if you call and the flop comes as it did, why are you ever thinking of folding? Did he really call thinking he only had 2 outs or was he just scared of lossing the money? Nice hand sir.
    You are analyzing way way above this guys capability. It really boils down to that players at this level just wont fold KK EVER!.. unless there is an Ace on the flop then they MIGHT.. MIGHT fold.. With 300bbs deep I feel you have an opportunity to actually get away from the hand.

    I know some ppl here think I am a bit nitty when it comes to fold pre with KK or QQ but I thnk this is a clear example of way head way behind.. therefore you need to protect your stack .. Now I could be reading too much into the fact that I know what you and villain had but I would have played this a bit differently.

    1) I am not 4 betting pre with QQ.. you will shoved on with AA and called with KK-JJ and relatively speaking it doesnt really define your hand so much.

    I would three bet for sure and then just flat and play for check call on flop and turn depending on texture but folding to bet on river since so many players at this level would check river . I think villain has KK alot of the time.

    2) If I flopped a set then I would have played it exactly like you did.. if you are up against nit you just cant check raise because the fold too much so its either lead lead lead or check call ch bet.. you will get more money from a lead lead lead line.

    3) As played I dont mind the lead.. but once villain calls me I know he has at least JJ since I think he probably folds TT and below.. I would bet again on turn but I would make the bet smaller than the flop %.. now I am probably going into pot control mode.. I would be keenling aware of how he calls me.. if he calls quickly then I would bet river and he will call again with TT and JJ and I lose to KK.. thats ok.. because I protected my stack..

    I think many times when super deep players forget that with 300 bbs you really dont have to get it all in unless you absolutely know that villain has worse and will call you. By turn I would probabaly put villain on KK-TT in this hand and would not try to get it all in since I only think he calls with KK and will fold everything else..

    but again I wasnt there and for all I know this guy would have spazzed with 88s
  • Jseeley Posts: 48Member
    I forgot to add in OP that I had like 2 callers behind. Since villain was young I thought he could possibly be squeezing and would always shove over 4 bet with KK.
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