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strategy help for super loose home game

nahcretep Posts: 108Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I recently joined a ultra loose home game with $0.25/$0.50 blinds with standard 100bb buy in.

Notes on the game:
-people do not fold to pre-flop 6x raises causing a snow ball effect of callers and ballooned pot to the flop.
-since pots are big, players like to shove or make huge bets to \"protect\" with marginal tops pairs as well as monsters such as flopped flushes also
to protect....i guess they are unknowingly playing balanced?
-with betting going at every street, it is usual to have still 3 players by the river.

Questions:
-how would you guys approach none nutted hand such as over pairs/TPTK when pot is huge at the flop and is still multi-way on the turn and river? I like to play the bet bet bet game as well as bet fold, but most time there are no room to bet fold by the turn and river...
imagine for example if I have AA UTG and raise 6x to 3$(for value) with 5 callers making it already $15 in the pot...

thanks any advice is much appreciated!
P

Comments

  • Arenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    Sounds to me like your game is just gambling rather than tryting to "play poker". If I was in this game, I would be looking for good spots in position, and continue to bet fold my strong hands and ditch my weak hands. Look for 3 bet opportunities again in position and be willing ot get to showdown with TPTK.

    I am sure others have more advanced advice. GL
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    1. Tighten up significantly!
    2. Choose more high-card hands (broadway cards); avoid suited connectors and suited aces. Also avoid dominated hands like QT, KT, etc.
    3. Try to only pay big pots when you have position.
    4. Experiment with different raise sizings. Just because everybody raises to 6x doesn't mean you also have to. See what happens if you raise to 3-4x, 10x, 12x, etc... from different positions.
  • Philly Dave Posts: 114Subscriber
    Pretty much what WYP says. With low SPRs due to bloated pots resulting from large raises and multiple callers it is correct for players to be shoving flops a lot. So I would be playing tight aggressive. Playing high EV hands. It actually sounds like a game where a lot of the Matt Flynn/Sonny Meta SPR stuff from Proffessional No Limit Holdem Vol. I would apply. This would result in doing exactly what WYP eluded to... consider larger PF raises with hands likely to flop TPTK and over pairs.

    I would imagine there are occasional spots where you can see cheap flops with more speculative hands but I would be very careful not to be entering pots in early position with those hands.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    First dont worry about 5 callers with Aces. I used to when I first started and thats ludicrious. Yes they'll get snapped more often but you'll also win more when they hold up and that will offset the times they get cracked. Same thing with AQ etc hands. you should raise for value Pf period. I would 3bet with hands like AQ and AJ maybe even lighter if everyone is that call happy. Also with looser opponents you have to be willing to call down lighter. It sounds like If a 10 is top pr on the board for example these guys if they have j10 they think its the nuts- your Q10 is GOOD! You could just tighten way up I guess and if they are as bad as they sound than this would work (not the optimal way to play imo) but if they are paying attn at all they wont give you action and rightly so if you're a nit. I know tons of people who never get action than bitch about it; umm hello? This was the first time you raised in over a hour.
  • nahcretep Posts: 108Subscriber
    cool, thanks for the input!
    these players are definitely not good, but will also make moves if they think you can fold over pairs.
    the other night I 3 bet pre with kk to 5$ and got 3 callers (about $22 in the pot). flop comes 736 and UG shoved for $27, UG+1 folds, I call, button folds. Ug tables 7-2 saying he thought I can fold over pair there. In my mind his range is wide and definitely no flopped nut hands since I know they want caller, but could very well have all 2 pair combos....
    do you guys think its right to some times think "well, if you got it i have to pay you off mentality" in situations like these?
  • Philly Dave Posts: 114Subscriber
    PeterChan said

    cool, thanks for the input!
    these players are definitely not good, but will also make moves if they think you can fold over pairs.
    the other night I 3 bet pre with kk to 5$ and got 3 callers (about $22 in the pot). flop comes 736 and UG shoved for $27, UG+1 folds, I call, button folds. Ug tables 7-2 saying he thought I can fold over pair there. In my mind his range is wide and definitely no flopped nut hands since I know they want caller, but could very well have all 2 pair combos....
    do you guys think its right to some times think "well, if you got it i have to pay you off mentality" in situations like these?
    This is a perfect example of where the SPR / commitment plan stuff outlined in PLNLH Vol I really does apply. It is an exploitable strategy that falls apart with better players and deeper games but it was designed for roughly these type of games. With the KK you would commit to virtually any non Ace flop shoot for a low SPR by probably 3 betting larger and expecting 1 or 2 callers. With no A on the flop you are looking to get all the money in. You cannot be bluffed once you've committed.
  • StopHammertimeStopHammertime Posts: 81Member
    This sounds like the players don't value the money they're putting in. I was watching a friend play the Zynga poker stuff on Facebook and that's what this reminds me of.
  • I disagree with the advice to tighten up. It doesn't sound like there is a lot of preflop three-betting -- just a lot of preflop calling. This, together with the fact that they are all calling stations on later streets, means that you can open up your preflop calling range, especially with pocket pairs and hands like AXs and KXs. On the flop, play made hands fast (they'll call) and play draws passive (there's no fold equity).

    Low suited connectors go down in value, since you won't have a lot of fold equity when you flop draws and since there will be a lot of people with higher flushes when you hit (if they're playing 7-2, they're also playing hands like J5s). But for the same reason, AXs and KXs go up in value -- a lot of people will have lower flushes when you hit.

    I also agree with DanVanDyke that you should open up your three-betting range preflop. If you're in the BB and there is a single 6x raise and four callers, three-bet big with your AJo. Make it $20. There's a ton of dead money in there at that point.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Jeremy K. said
    I disagree with the advice to tighten up. It doesn't sound like there is a lot of preflop three-betting -- just a lot of preflop calling. This, together with the fact that they are all calling stations on later streets, means that you can open up your preflop calling range, especially with pocket pairs and hands like AXs and KXs. On the flop, play made hands fast (they'll call) and play draws passive (there's no fold equity).
    The reason why to tighten up is recommended IMO is not preflop (I agree we are not scared to get 3bet and have to fold), but rather postflop. What are you doing with AT on a AJ8ss board in MP, with 3 guys behind you left to act, and everybody willing to get their money in? Are you happy in this spot? What are you doing on T86? Or KT2? Or AQJ? ... There are a million flops which are somewhat decent, but not great for medium-strength hands, so you end up in a lot of shitty spots, where you have too much equity to fold but not enough to happily get your money in. Especially in early and mid position. Of course you are often ahead of your opponents individual ranges, but that doesn't prevent you from making expensive mistakes postflop. You will often end up either winning a medium sized pot or loosing a very large one.

    Pocket pairs is a completely different story, since they have great playablilty. You immediately know where you are, and decisions become very simple postflop.
    Jeremy K. said
    Low suited connectors go down in value, since you won't have a lot of fold equity when you flop draws and since there will be a lot of people with higher flushes when you hit (if they're playing 7-2, they're also playing hands like J5s). But for the same reason, AXs and KXs go up in value -- a lot of people will have lower flushes when you hit.
    I agree with this for the most part. AXs hands can become tricky postflop if everybody is eager to get their money in, because you also end up hitting a lot of halfway decent flops which make your life difficult. They are still drawing hands on most flops.
    Jeremy K. said
    I also agree with DanVanDyke that you should open up your three-betting range preflop. If you're in the BB and there is a single 6x raise and four callers, three-bet big with your AJo. Make it $20. There's a ton of dead money in there at that point.
    I am not sure if this is a good idea. What's your intention behind 3betting? What do you want to achieve by doing it? You should ask yourself what is going to happen when yu 3bet. How many folds do you expect?
    - In case everybody would fold all but their premium hands (unlikely, but let's assume that for the sake of the argument), you should rather take A4o or K8o to do this, since you are wasting the equity that AJo has in a single raised pot (which mainly comes from making better top pair hands than your villains).
    - In case you will often get multiple callers, you are OOP in a bloated multiway pot with a decent hand. It should definitely be +EV, but the question is: is it more EV than flatcalling? If you hit something, you can happily get your stack in, no problem. Variance will be huge, but that's another issue. However, given the dynamics described, won't you be able to get your money in (or close to it) if you hit in a single raised pot? If nobody folds post, why not keep the pot small until you see the flop? By 3betting, you will often have to fold after the flop, so you loose quite some money all those times when you miss.
    - I think 3betting makes a lot of sense if you can manage it to get the hand heads up or 3way, with people calling with inferior hands, like A9-AT, KJ-KT, etc... If this won't happen, since either 5 people will call every time or everybody will fold those hands to a 3bet, then I don't like it.
  • WYP -- I think of the terms "tight" and "loose" as referring to preflop, and "aggressive" and "passive" as post-flop. So when you said "tighten up significantly," I assumed you meant play a narrower range of hands preflop. That said, I think I still disagree with you. Because these guys have a wider range preflop and are calling stations postflop (e.g., three players at the river), I think you need to open up -- rather than restrict -- your value-betting range.

    But I think you make real good points about 3betting preflop, WYP. It's better to 3bet with A4o or K8o than my example of AJo, since those hands have such little value except as blockers. Also, as you say, it depends on how the table is reacting to preflop 3bets, which it doesn't sound like they see much of. But if he can 3bet to $20 with his A4o and either take it down there or get it heads up, then he should do this all day. He'll know which flops to cbet and which to slow down on.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Jeremy K. said

    WYP -- I think of the terms "tight" and "loose" as referring to preflop, and "aggressive" and "passive" as post-flop. So when you said "tighten up significantly," I assumed you meant play a narrower range of hands preflop. That said, I think I still disagree with you. Because these guys have a wider range preflop and are calling stations postflop (e.g., three players at the river), I think you need to open up -- rather than restrict -- your value-betting range.
    By "tighten up significantly" I do mean you should play less hands preflop. OP said "since pots are big, players like to shove or make huge bets to \"protect\" with marginal tops pairs as well as monsters such as flopped flushes also". This is the reason why. Take my example from above or any similar medium strength hand and ask yourself: how often do I really get a flop on which I want to stack of against 3-5 players with hands like KJ, AT, QJ, QT, A8s, etc. ?
  • whatsyourplay? said

    OP said "since pots are big, players like to shove or make huge bets to \"protect\" with marginal tops pairs as well as monsters such as flopped flushes also". This is the reason why.
    >

    Most players will stack off with monsters, but not with marginal hands. The players described by PeterChan will stack off with monsters AND marginal hands. Shouldn't that make us more eager to stack off with them, rather than less eager?

    Obviously it's high variance, but to me the fact 1) that they'll stack off with "marginal" hands, 2) that they're calling stations ("3 players by the river") and 3) that they get to the flop with weak holdings (e.g., 7-2), means that we should value-bet lighter and be prepared to stack off lighter. Assuming that we can stomach the variance, this will bring a higher EV than tightening up against their light shoves.

    Unless I'm misinterpreting PeterChan, he's asking what kinds of adjustments he should make given these players' particular characteristics of stacking off light, calling light, and getting to the flop with weak holdings. I don't see how those things point to playing "tighter" post-flop and value-betting less.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I really don't know how to explain my reasoning other than what I wrote above. You seem to forget the consequences of playing most hands multiway.
    You will repeatedly end up in a position where one player bets into you and you have three players left to act. That's a shitty spot to be in with a marginal one pair hand. What are you goint to do with it? Call? Get it in? If you raise, your opponents can play perfectly against you. If you flat, they will get good odds to draw and suck out on you. You are not stacking of against one opponent, you are stacking of against the strongest hand(s) of several opponents combined. I.e. you are often going to be crushed when the money goes in.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Forgot to mention one more thing. Jeremy, if I didn't miss anything, nobody advocated to valuebet less.
    Playing a tighter and therefore stronger range is independent from how passively or aggressively you proceed.
    Actually, a case could be made that a stronger range even allows you to play it more aggressively.
  • nahcretep Posts: 108Subscriber
    I think there are some things be said for both playing tighter and lose range in this game.

    whatsyourplay-i agree playing open raising, 3-betting tight Pre-flop (top 2% hand haha even QQ I might consider to not 3-bet...) as I really hate my spot in bloat up post with those weird flops you describe, that it kinda sucks to get multi callers but you don't really want to get it in....
    but I am considering play fit or fold, and to either BBB with smaller sizing like 1/2 1/3 pot bets or BcheckB to pot control. TPTK hand I think doesnt not do well against 3~4 callers to the turn and will only continue if they 1.they are stations 2.they hit 2 pair 3.they made some combo draw outs 4. they bluff all in to protect and make you fold.

    jeremy K-I think i like the idea of playing semi-loose not crazy and just callwith A-x suited K-x suited and high card suited hands mostly since I can over flush people. I am going to try not to play low range suited connectors like 5-6 ~ 8-9 since I am most likely sharing cards with other people as
    I tried open raising with things like 7-8 suited or 6-5 suited type for deception, but no one really hand read or care about ranges I really don't think
    it accomplishes much. I dont mind variance...but not if I'm having it all night with every top pair-top kicker or mid kicker hands
  • nahcretep Posts: 108Subscriber
    interesting hand play last week:
    1. bunch of limpers, tight player makes it $1.50, 2 callers, I make it $6 in BB with KK, get 4 callers. board comes AS8S5c, goes check check, button shoves for around 32$ and SB calls about $26, button tables 10s7s and SB shows 76 for open ender....
    2.tight player raise to $1.5 1 caller, Im in the BB with KK again and 3 bet to $5.5, 2 callers, flop is QAA, I check, tight player bets 5, 1 caller, i fold...
    money goes in on the turn, QQ vs A-7 off
    3. I open raise 9c8c to $1.5 next player 3-bet to $3.5 and gets 1 caller, I 4-bet to$15 knowing my image to them is super tight and will get folds...
    both player calls. flop 10QQ rainbow, I check, next player bets $5 the other guy shoves for 25$ and gets called. original better shows 10-10 for a boat, the shovers shows J-J and mumbles he thought I will fold AA there.
    the question is that If i did have AA/kk there, should I even C-bet small , shove or check fold, check call?
    its 45$ in the pot and I will have about $30...

    thanks for all the feed back by the way!
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    This thread was well timed as I was at a Chinese New Year celebration in Asia last night where we played homegame hold'em with a bunch of casual players there to gamble. The max buy-in was only 25xBB (!), the USD equivalent of $70. I had just read this thread - and I generally agreed with whats' approach to these kind of games and played very tight PF.

    It definitely worked in this short-term sample as I played for about 4 hours and 5x'd up to USD $380 and actually did not lose a hand (!), which was especially impressive given I was so card-dead I barely played any hands (and no 3-betting) and my style of tight PF play stuck-out like a sore thumb. The benefit was pretty much anytime I bet, they folded by the turn (an extreme case study of how Bart defines winning image). The bad thing is being card-dead it was a grind to be disciplined PF, but the discipline did matter as people were getting their stacks in with 3rd pair vs. 2nd pair etc etc and the key was to have better starting hands and let that higher starting equity work for you.
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