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Is this a pretty standard fold? Kings facing 5 bet, deep 2/5

DoubleAAron Posts: 112Subscriber
edited June 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Found myself in a pretty gross spot this week at the Rio in an uncapped 2/5 game. I originally bought in 1k but added on another 1k after a really bad player directly to my right won a huge pot and was sitting just under 2k.

My table image was mixed. I won a big pot with 33 on a 633 board but lost a good size one against the same Villain as hand below when I had 67s of Js8s6x board and we got it all in on the turn and I bricked against his Aces. Villain is pretty decent TAG who says he has his own game in Austin. He had won another huge pot with Aces against a King high flush draw although was recently just shown a pure $675 bluff when he folded the turn in a 4-bet pot pre flop.

He is Main Villain and sitting on 1500. Other Villain has about 400.

I am in the SB with Red Kings. Villain makes it 20 from cut off. Button calls. I look down at my Kings and am cutting out chips for a raise when the BB, other Villain, makes it $70 out of turn. Dealer stops him and tells him it is my turn to act. I say "I was intending to raise and feel it would be an angle shoot to do anything other than that" and put in the $70 I had cut out. V2 thinks about it for a second and makes it $140. Main Villain now thinks for a moment and makes it $320. Button folds. It's now on me. To recap:

Cutoff ($1500) raise to 20
Button calls
Hero ($1800) raise to 70
BB raise to 140
Cutoff raise to 320
Button folds
Hero - ???

My read on Villain (cutoff) is that he is pretty straight forward but not afraid to mix it up and play post-flop. On the hand where I flopped pair/flush draw, he just called my flop raise and check-raised AI on turn with his aces on a safe turn. In the hand where he was bluffed on turn, he called big re-raise pre-flop and called pot size bet on flop before folding what he claimed was just a small pair on 9532 board.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • fishcake Posts: 1,002Subscriber
    Maybe call if you think he will give you everything if you flop a King. It's fairly close stack size wise and there's some dead money in there from the BB. I think it's a fold. Nothing he has done seems like you have the best hand here.
  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    I don't think I'd ever call folding KK pre-flop standard - we had a long discussion about that a couple of months ago.

    The TAG has to assume that the shorter stack is going to get it in here, so the shorter stack serves as a truth serum to eliminate his bluffing range. Could the short stack have JJ, and the bigger stack have QQ or AK and be trying to isolate? Yeah, I think so.

    The problem is RIO. Are we going to stack off on the flop if there's no ace? One of these guys has AA a ton of the time, even though they don't have to have AA 100% of the time. I'm not a good enough poker player to want to call here and try to figure out the times I should call a flop bet and the times I shouldn't.

    In the real world, I'd probably call and lose a huge pot, but I think this is a fold here. If the other villain had 1k I'm probably playing for stacks, though.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    edited June 2014
    when is the last time you saw a 5bet preflop in 2/5nl game?
    when is the last time you saw a min-5bet preflop in a 2/5nl game?

    yes, the hand is weird cuz a guy tried to raise out of turn and there's a fair amount of dead money in the middle, but i don't ever remember someone 5 betting (with small-ish sizing) without having AA. ever. in 2/5nl.

    think about if he would play QQ or AK this way. would he give you a fantastic price to continue with QQ assuming that you could easily have AK? would he try to minimize fold equity with AK with small sizing? nope.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    I think we can fold to the 5 bet though. People's 5 bet ranges multiway when over 200 bb deep is either AA or KK+.

    I wouldn't consider calling the original raise an angle shoot. In fact, I'd expect most people to flat and no one to get upset about it.
  • RDF Posts: 183Member
    I'm not folding KK here because of the short-stack dynamic, the fact that people are in tourney mode, and the fact that a third person showed interest meaning we might be able to eliminate some A's.
  • DoubleAAron Posts: 112Subscriber
    Tyrith said:
    I don't think I'd ever call folding KK pre-flop standard - we had a long discussion about that a couple of months ago.

    The TAG has to assume that the shorter stack is going to get it in here, so the shorter stack serves as a truth serum to eliminate his bluffing range. Could the short stack have JJ, and the bigger stack have QQ or AK and be trying to isolate? Yeah, I think so.

    The problem is RIO. Are we going to stack off on the flop if there's no ace? One of these guys has AA a ton of the time, even though they don't have to have AA 100% of the time. I'm not a good enough poker player to want to call here and try to figure out the times I should call a flop bet and the times I shouldn't.

    In the real world, I'd probably call and lose a huge pot, but I think this is a fold here. If the other villain had 1k I'm probably playing for stacks, though.
    Great analysis and post. I think you're right that folding KK is probably never "standard" based on absolute strength but I was thinking it might be more standard given the raise, call, re-raise, re-raise, re-raise action.

    You hit the nail right on the head in your last paragraph. I was sitting there looking at my $70 in the pot while holding my stack of 100's in my hand thinking "I can't believe I'm gonna get away from this hand for $70" completely ready to and content to fold. Then my brain just switched gears, I started looking at the Villains' money and got blinded by the fact that I MIGHT win a huge pot and started thinking about all the times that I've posted in forums over the years criticizing people who suggest folding Kings pre-flop.

    I tossed in all my cash which covered both players. The Other Villain in the BB says "That's a very good bet, Sir" before taking 30 seconds and pushing all his chips in. When the Main Villain doesn't insta-call I have this huge sense of relief. He then asks the dealer, "He's all-in??" The dealers nods. "Oh yeah yeah, I call, I'm all-in, I'm all-in. I've got Aces". Flop comes Ace high to seal it. I never see the BB's hand. Fuck.

    I met up with my buddy a few minutes later and told him I just ran Kings into Aces in a $3500 pot and should have gotten away from it. He was like "No man, you can't get away from it there. It's a cooler. How'd the money get it?" I reply, "Well it went raise, 3 bet, 4 bet, 5 bet..." He looks at me, "Yeah, maybe you can get away from it."


  • Lownstarr Posts: 268Subscriber
    Yeah there are only a very small number of guys in my player pool who would 4 or 5 bet with anything other than aces.

    The longer I play the less interested I am at ever getting the money in pre-flop with any kind of decent stack. I'd rather see a flop and outplay them after that.
    by 1Tyrith
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