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Playing wraps

VernonJones Posts: 178Subscriber
2/2 plo effective stacks. $500. I call $10 raise from mp with 9875 ds and bb makes it $72. Everyone folds back to me and there is over $30 dead $ and I decide to call. I think V has aces and he tends to overplay his hands and I have position. The button also calls. Flop 56Kr. V leads out for $200 . What do I do ? Is my preflop call of $72 correct; what about if my 5 was a 6 ?

Comments

  • RDF Posts: 183Member
    Ship - don't flat.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    edited June 2014
    Preflop play is fine. Flop is unquestionably an all in.

    Too bad we're not deeper so it's unlikely he'll ever fold to a ship, but we should ship anyway in case he somehow folds a hand like QJT8 which has equity to call vs. us. We aren't going to fold any turn cards and don't want to give him the chance to.

    (also while it isn't super relevant due to how this hand plays out, for future reference unless there were like 6 limpers in this hand and bb didn't raise as much as he was able to preflop, you need to protect yourself from him overbetting the flop)
  • BradleyT Posts: 621Subscriber
    (also while it isn't super relevant due to how this hand plays out, for future reference unless there were like 6 limpers in this hand and bb didn't raise as much as he was able to preflop, you need to protect yourself from him overbetting the flop)
    I don't understand what that means.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    Well the action isn't entirely laid out, but assuming it went raise to $10, 4 calls, BB pots to $72, hero calls, then BB shouldn't be able to bet $200 in a pot limit game on the flop. Again, it's not very relevant for this hand, but I think this is the 2nd time I saw a post from VernonJones where this was the case so I thought I'd mention it. That's all.
  • BradleyT Posts: 621Subscriber
    Oh. He said the button called also so 3x$72 preflop it seems.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    Oops, I misread the hand
  • VernonJones Posts: 178Subscriber
    Thanks. Yea I though it would be heads up when I called but last person to act behind me also calked. I did ship the flop and it went AA and he had quad aces. Lol. Just wanted to make sure I was thinking about it correctly.
  • BrisbanePoker Posts: 4Member
    All in! AINEC.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    VernonJones said:
    I call $10 raise from mp with 9875 ds and bb makes it $72. Everyone folds back to me and there is over $30 dead $ and I decide to call.
    Is there a case here to re-raise over the BB's pot pre-flop? We don't have nut flush draws, and if we get the pot heads up against the BB, chances are that both (or at least one) of our flush draws will be live. Multi-way, the chances of our flush draws being live diminishes with each additional villain in the hand. With nut suits, multi-way is preferable. Plus, a middle wrap would seem to me to have a lot of equity heads-up vs. random AA hands.

    Am I thinking about this correctly?
  • BradleyT Posts: 621Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    reed,

    I think that's super hard to quantify. There's basically a point somewhere between $1 and ESS (eff stack size) where putting in more money preflop with 5789 vs. AA becomes -EV. Obviously putting in $1 pre and $1000 post (with the best hand) is going to be super +EV. Putting in $1000 pre and $1 post is going to be -EV.

    So then you have to compare how knocking the other player out affects your EV. Having him in probably greatly decreases your EV on flops like KJ8 where you have a pair + BDSD + BDFD and aren't doing that bad vs. AA but are most likely doing very bad vs. AA + 3rd players range. The 3rd guy takes away some of your postflop equity in that way. And also when you do flop a flush draw and he's in the hand, how much do you want to rely on your 9 high flush being good outs? So there definitely is a lot of benefit to getting him out of the pot.

    But the real hard part is determining "how much we can spend to get him out of the pot". http://en.donkr.com/Articles/plo-from-scratch---part-3-219 Go down to part 3 and read from there. Basically 6789ds becomes -EV when you 4-bet preflop with 100bb stacks because too much goes in PRE and you can't extract enough POST.
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