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2/5 NL. Flop top set!! Fast play for the win.

PokerSniperAA Posts: 10Member
edited July 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
stacks are 900 Effective. I am the small blind with 10 10 . The early position raiser raises to 20 and get 2 callers including me. I Was doing a bit of three betting and just decided to flat out of small blind. The initial raiser was pretty tight, I saw a few thin value bets on river, but I also saw some odd check backs on flop/turn. He is an ok player.

Pot is 60 Flop comes 10 5 2 rainbow and I lead (donk bet) for 25. Preflop raiser makes it 60 and the other guy folds. I bet three bet and make it 115. he calls. Pot is now 290. Turn is a 7 that brings a back door flush draw. I lead for 150. HE hems and haws and eventually folds and says he only had ace king.

Now I've seen this guy check back lots of flops and turns with really good hands. I feel like I played the hand a bit out of the box by donk leading 3 bet flop LOL, and I feel my sizing was a bit to large on the turn (maybe could have made it 70 instead of 150 into a 290 pot). I was hoping he had a real hand like QQ KK or AA and would never ever suspect someone to play top set this way.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    I do this alot against the right guys. esp. guys who think you are scared or they can own you. I would take care of the positions though, in that case, the PFA has 2 players behind him and this will usually prevent him from making a bluffraise (though it's not a big difference simply because the guys behind him will have a hard time calling anything except a set when he raises and that's very rare).

    I think lead and tankcalling is nice too. min3betting is also cool but I would probably check the turn if you think you can level that guy :D (but it's really villain dependent ofc) - betting small seems fine too but not to small, it just looks stronger IMO - I mean what you really exepct someone to bluff small on the turn? smells tooo fishy I guess..

    If you ever build up history with some guy this line is really nice because in the future you can also lead 2nd pair or so and he will not blindly raise you.
  • BradleyT Posts: 621SubscriberProfessional
    Raising your donk lead with AK - who sees anyone doing that? I think you made him fold an overpair too cheaply.
  • DonkieRon Posts: 577Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    BradleyT said:
    Raising your donk lead with AK - who sees anyone doing that? I think you made him fold an overpair too cheaply.

    I hope your doing it or your not trying to Crush. Yeah a call raise and block turn line might get more money in pot or call ck line but the 1st line keeps putting money in the pot and gives villian a chance to Spazz.
  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    I think a better line would have been to check the flop and go for a min-check raise. If he has a c-betting frequency at all, he's going to c-bet here. If he bets 35 into 60, for instance, and we make it 75, he's going to call with all his overpairs, but we get the betting lead. We can then bet/bet turn/river and try to three-street AA-QQ.

    Since you say he's an okay player, I'm thinking he's not going to just blindly pay us off with overpairs. Accordingly, I think we have to take the risk of the flop checking through in order to build the pot up, because bet/3-bet the flop, bet/call flop donk turn, and bet/call flop check/raise turn all look too strong. We want to take to try to take the weakest looking line we can that still has us controlling the bet sizing.
  • Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
    I really like the donk lead.

    I think you either need to just call on the flop or if you 3-Bet check the turn. The check on the turn will bait him into betting a lot imo. I do not think you can 3-Bet and lead turn, because you will fold out almost everything.

  • floppedawheel Posts: 1,063Subscriber
    i like your line if villain is playing a standard early position raise range pre. if you bet out on flop, villain is quite likely to call with overcards and will definitely call with overpairs. if you don't bet out, there's no chance of inducing a raise. once he does raise, we are then approaching the hand from one angle: extracting max value from an overpair, which he's broadcasting that he has. i like your sizing on the turn. i think he probably did have AK actually. do you think he's really folding an overpair? JJ maybe. but never in a bazillion, bazillion years QQ+. you got a little 'unlucky' i guess that he didn't have an overpair, but you got max value from AK. nh.
  • BradleyT Posts: 621SubscriberProfessional
    DonkieRon said:
    BradleyT said:
    Raising your donk lead with AK - who sees anyone doing that? I think you made him fold an overpair too cheaply.

    I hope your doing it or your not trying to Crush. Yeah a call raise and block turn line might get more money in pot or call ck line but the 1st line keeps putting money in the pot and gives villian a chance to Spazz.
    Well I'd certainly love to hear more about bluff raising donk leads when we have AK.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    If you think that the pfr is tighter and slightly better than most players then I like the small lead.. that said I would not bet threebet.. that looks way way too strong.. you are letting him off the hook..

    I would have preferred the call and then possibly just lead small again on the turn with "safe cards" like non broadway cards.. if there was a broadway card I would tend to check since again those should be good cards for him to hit or bluff at and now you can go for a min check raise..

    also important is the liklihood that villain would check turn would determine If I try for a check raise or just lead out.. the better the player the more likely I think he bets both for value and as a bluff.. the worse the player the more likely he is going to check it back..

    ww
  • dannydeuces Posts: 239Member
    Donk lead on flop was fine. Sizing on turn was fine as well - 5s & 2s are going to get it in; all of his air hands should have been released by now calling the 3bet on the flop.
  • AlexB Posts: 160Subscriber
    I like your line well played. Would have played it the same way probably. Either that or flat the raise and donk the turn again. Some aggro players get really pissed when they tried to freeze the action on flop and then get donked into on turn.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    BradleyT said:
    DonkieRon said:
    BradleyT said:
    Raising your donk lead with AK - who sees anyone doing that? I think you made him fold an overpair too cheaply.

    I hope your doing it or your not trying to Crush. Yeah a call raise and block turn line might get more money in pot or call ck line but the 1st line keeps putting money in the pot and gives villian a chance to Spazz.
    Well I'd certainly love to hear more about bluff raising donk leads when we have AK.
    raise/bet/bet against donk bets = printing money against 95% of players in my experience.

    how often do you see players lead with strong hands on a dry board?

  • DoubleAAron Posts: 112Subscriber
    AlexB said:
    I like your line well played. Would have played it the same way probably. Either that or flat the raise and donk the turn again. Some aggro players get really pissed when they tried to freeze the action on flop and then get donked into on turn.
    I really like the donk/call flop, then donk the turn line with our hand in this spot. Like you said, I think aggro players are more likely to spazz shove for their whole stack on the turn then opposed to calling a 3 bet on flop and calling it all off on turn/river.

    Against a recreational player who I know is never capable of folding Aces or Kings in this spot, then I'll 3 bet flop and just bomb it in on the turn, even if it's pot plus bet because they are willing to play for stacks with their hand and the size of the pot is irrelevant. Against better players who are capable of folding big pairs and/or capable of bluffing/bluff raising off all their chips, then I'm usually just calling the flop raise on this super dry board and looking for a way to get it in on the turn.

    I know the general CLP philosophy is fast play/value bet = get paid but I think this is one of those spots where the board is so dry and we are so strong that it might be optimal to get a little more deceptive and try and let our opponent put a few more chips into the pot before we reveal just how strong we are.
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