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PFR for hand range narrowing, or call for value?

charlie310charlie310 Posts: 65Member
edited July 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
During my bad run, I've come across several coolers (JJ vs QQ, QQ vs KK). In retrospect, I think I would have saved more chips if I just PFR the V to, let's say, 3x their raise and fold to a re-raise.

Then again, most Vs overvalue their hands so alot of times I'd fold the best hand. And, if the V just calls, I'm in the same situation except the pot is bigger.

I know this is really V-dependent, but some cases I don't know the V very well.

Comments

  • Lownstarr Posts: 268Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    Here's what I do if I don't have a lot of player or table info yet...interested to hear what others say.

    A lot of the time I'm just going to call a raise with a hand like QQ or JJ and go to a flop. I count on my better-than-average post-flop play for help (thanks CLP). Most weaker players play pre-flop best...so why help them fold dominated hands with a 3-bet or give them an opportunity to 4-bet you with a super premium hand?

    Getting coolered sucks...clearly...but I'd look more to your flop and turn play as to why you're having trouble. You shouldn't be getting felted frequently with overpairs if you're playing any kind of deepish stack. Take this flop, for example:

    Ts 5c 2d

    How are you playing this with an overpair and deep stacks? For me, I'm trying to extract value but not overplay my hand...I just have a pair after all. I'm generally pursuing bet/fold lines if checked to, and I'm calling not raising if they bet.

    Also, I think it's worth time thinking about how you can quickly size up players and tables to get some kind of information...stereotype using age/gender/ethnicity/dress...watch the pre-flop action for the table and extrapolate for general play style...etc.
  • charlie310charlie310 Posts: 65Member
    edited July 2014
    Well, almost always these dont play out with V checking any street. Im not raising post flop to overplay. Im not getting felted. Just spewing from calling.

    Just bouncing around some ideas.
  • LVH Posts: 171Member
    In a full 2/5 or 1/3 game QQ isn't doing great vs. most people's 5 bet range. JJ is doing badly. I don't think it's really true that people overvalue their all in hands preflop all that much. It's probably the best part of most people's games.

    You def. don't have to 3 bet those hands at all. If you do, it should be on some evidence they have a worse hand. eg, if someone 3 bets once in 8 hours, there's no reason to 4 bet them with JJ and prob not QQ and maybe not KK and if you're only 4 betting AA and they know/think this and can fold, then maybe not even AA. If they 3b once every 20 hands, then it's an option. But you still don't HAVE to. You can also trap, especially if you think a 4 bet gives them too much info.

    It sounds like you were raising really big and then feeling priced in and praying for AK. That's def. a bad route to go. As you said, you can raise 3x and fold. You can raise even less. You can also just call.
  • Lownstarr Posts: 268Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    charlie310 said:
    Well, almost always these dont play out with V checking any street. Im not raising post flop to overplay. Im not getting felted. Just spewing from calling.

    Just bouncing around some ideas.
    I think these are just coolers then. If you're calling down 1/2 to 2/3-pot sized bets from people you don't know with overpairs to the board, I think I'd probably do the same. Raising these pre-flop seems like overplay though.
  • charlie310charlie310 Posts: 65Member
    edited July 2014
    LVH said:
    In a full 2/5 or 1/3 game QQ isn't doing great vs. most people's 5 bet range. JJ is doing badly. I don't think it's really true that people overvalue their all in hands preflop all that much. It's probably the best part of most people's games.

    You def. don't have to 3 bet those hands at all. If you do, it should be on some evidence they have a worse hand. eg, if someone 3 bets once in 8 hours, there's no reason to 4 bet them with JJ and prob not QQ and maybe not KK and if you're only 4 betting AA and they know/think this and can fold, then maybe not even AA. If they 3b once every 20 hands, then it's an option. But you still don't HAVE to. You can also trap, especially if you think a 4 bet gives them too much info.

    It sounds like you were raising really big and then feeling priced in and praying for AK. That's def. a bad route to go. As you said, you can raise 3x and fold. You can raise even less. You can also just call.
    I think you missed it. I wasn't talking about 5bets. I was just pondering the idea of 3betting/4betting to extract info against an unknown V whose bet sizing looks like a high-pocket pair.

    Never did I say I'm raising really big. I said I was just calling. I also said I wasn't getting felted. And your conclusion "As you said, you can raise 3x and fold. You can raise even less. You can also just call." brings us back full-circle.

    I do appreciate the help. It just seems like you misread the posts.
  • charlie310charlie310 Posts: 65Member
    Lownstarr said:

    I think these are just coolers then. If you're calling down 1/2 to 2/3-pot sized bets from people you don't know with overpairs to the board, I think I'd probably do the same. Raising these pre-flop seems like overplay though.
    Yea, I'm probably over-analyzing and being a little results-oriented. After a bad session, I'm always looking at any mistakes and what I can do to prevent them in the future. This is probably one of those "you gotta lose that money" until I'm able to develop better reads on these players.
  • LVH Posts: 171Member
    charlie310 said:


    I do appreciate the help. It just seems like you misread the posts.
    Oh yeah, you're right. Sorry. You mentioned coolers and I lept to the conclusion that these were all in hands preflop. But you clearly said you'd have saved MORE chips in these spots with a diff. course, meaning you saved some.

    I guess it depends how the individual hands played out, then. If you're not getting slaughtered with QQ vs. KK that's probably pretty good. If you're already scared by the initial raise, I like calling and going from there. More so with JJ.

    You might be able to fold these by the river even as over pairs sometimes. T 8 4 4 2 or something, and an old nitty looking guy is blasting away. Hardly something I do every day though.

    Flopping sets is also a good tactic.



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