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Top Set - How to get Max Value

Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
edited July 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hero - 22 White male - Playing $2 $5 500 Cap. Stack currently around $850 and had been at the table for around an hour. I had been playing pretty active. I was iso raising a couple weak players when in position pretty often. If they checked you could always steal the pot with like a 50% pot bet on the flop.... It was pretty nice

Main Villain: Asian, clean cut around 40 years old. Had been at the table for about 20 mins. Did not see me win a larger hand when I first sat down. Was relatively active. Had won a nice hand where he called the preflop raise in position of another player and bet all 3 streets after being checked to with 33 on a J high board. He was called all the way down and won the pot.

Effective stacks $750

Pre-Flop: Villain limps, MP1 limps, MP3 Limps, Button Limps, Hero AsAh raises to 30 from SB. BB calls and all limpers complete

Flop (Pot 180): AcQd8d
Hero leads $75, BB Folds, Villain raises to $175, folds to Hero

What should Hero do?

My thoughts on Villain: I thought his range here was relatively wide although I had not seen him re-raise someone before. Only played with him for 20 min or so.

Range: 88, A8, AdXd, 10dJd, 9d10d, any other random connected FD. I do not think he ever has air here as that would be suicidal with 3 players behind and me.

I thought this would be a good hand to update as it goes. After a couple comments I will say the action and results.

Thanks for your thoughts.


  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    That hand from the villain's history seems insane, or I'm misreading it - He three-streeted the PFR with bottom pair to the board and was good?

    I think you should bet a little more...flush draws will call for $115 just as much as for $75. When the villain raises, I think we should click it back - raise to $300. We take back the betting lead, he can't fold anything, and we can bet the turn for sure while his draws are still live.

    I think he has a lot more semi-bluffs than air-bluffs with three guys to act after him. It's hard for him to have many made hands, even though he made a value hand sized bluff. That's okay, though, since he can have a lot of draws that we can get value from. The bottom of his value range should be Q8, and that's still not going to fold here. A8/Q8 also can face a lot of scare cards - any card higher than an 8 and any diamond. Let's get money in now.
  • Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
    Tyrith said:
    That hand from the villain's history seems insane, or I'm misreading it - He three-streeted the PFR with bottom pair to the board and was good?
    Yeah I was really confused when the hand happened, but it is accurate.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    75 on the flop is too small. Now that the villain has raised this amount he is never folding, he thinks he has trapped you. Raise to $425
  • MrFizzbinMrFizzbin Posts: 356Subscriber
    75 too soft on the flop 125 is the min,

    Villain may also have A8 clubs,spades,hearts. Or 88

  • Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    Thanks everyone for the feedback so far. MrFizzbin I messed up on my range when I put A3 and 33. I meant to put A8 and 88.

    In hindsight I think the lines that you guys have provided are all better then the one I took. I think I should have clicked it back on the flop. I elected to call on the flop. My reasoning for this was I basically from the hand history. He had bet 3 streets with a very weak holding. I also felt that he would play draws quickly and that 88 and maybe A8 was his only current value hand. He is raising AQ, and QQ pre. I think he folds Q8 in EP.

    My thought was that I could get the money in by just calling and also since he was not folding a FD I could almost see a free card. It was not that I was worried about getting a "bad beat," but more that I could let myself see a card and still get the money in. If he hit his flush on the turn I could then figure out what I thought was best.

    Action to the turn:

    Flop (Pot $180): AcQd8d - Hero bets $75 Villain raises to $175 Hero Calls
    Turn (Pot $530): Ks
    Effective stacks: $545

    What is Hero's action?

    I did not really like this card as I felt my range looked a lot like AK. This would put A8 in a tougher spot for him. I was not worried about 10J getting there but 10dJd was in his range.
  • floppedawheel Posts: 1,063Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    i like a bet of 250 and hope he ships over me.

    the problem with flatting the flop, even if you think you can let a card come and still get it in, is that you don't give him a chance to ship over you on the flop, which is a distinct possibility if he has a combo draw. the willingness to get stacks in is so much higher when he has not yet bricked the turn and knows he still has two cards to come. i mean, if you cannot imagine a holding that he could have that he is folding to a bet/3bet, then it's a must raise. dream spot so seize the dream.
  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    We're forced to bet here; the K in particular will shut down his value range. I like floppedawheel's sizing...we need him to be able to call with some two pair combos and some of his draws.

    Unfortunately, I think any bet large enough to get appreciable value is also a bet that's going to be large enough to get us pot stuck...we'll have $300 left, and if we checked and he shipped it'd be a ~$1350 pot. I don't think we can fold at that point.
  • MrFizzbinMrFizzbin Posts: 356Subscriber
    A8 and 88 are in his range, but less likely (esp A8 because thats the case A)

    He probably has a diamond draw KJD gives him a gutshot and a diamond draw.
    The case ace is the AD so if he's drawing he's could be drawing to the nut flush (though less likely) or 88 480 pot ship the 545 right here right now. if he had J10 of diamonds good on him. If you are going to get it now is the time to get it all. shove shove shove..
  • Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
    Thanks everyone for the comments. If only I could play like the CLP community haha. I am generally always playing this kind of hand very fast on a board like this and clicking it back on the flop then shoving turn. That was definitely the way to play this hand.

    As everyone always discussed you should almost play every hand fast. I over thought the hand, because of my previous hand history on this player. I felt like his hand was so weighted towards FD's and that he would almost always bet the turn if checked to. I planned to let him pot commit himself and C/R shove over the top.

    My plan didn't work and it went check check on the turn and the river was a brick. I led which at this point was wrong again. If I was ever going to get a chance to win more money it would be if I let him bluff the river...

    So moral of the story: Playing out of position sucks, Bet Bet Bet, and until you have a good amount of history on someone do not play a hand completely based off of just 1 previous hand.

    Also, idk if he was telling the truth as he did not show, but it didn't help when he told me he flopped the nut flush draw so he had top pair and the flush draw. Def would have gotten it in with me if I took the correct line.

    Thanks again and have a good weekend!
    by 1COPE
  • floppedawheel Posts: 1,063Subscriber
    Topset1610 said:
    until you have a good amount of history on someone do not play a hand completely based off of just 1 previous hand.
    this is an important point. straying from a time-tested line because of a single hand and nothing else is automatically a case of out-leveling. just not enough of a sample. you have to use those little shreds to tip the scales in a borderline situation, but it's not enough to change the line in basically standard spots.
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