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$1/$2 NL Three quick hands: AK we hit. AK we miss, do we fire turn vs 2? And weak combo draw from th

Chase Posts: 182Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Game is $1/$2 blind, $2-$100 spread limit hold'em (AZ state law bans 'no-limit' betting) at a local casino. The game is playing typically passive, and fairly loose.

Hand 1:

I start the hand with $125. UTG, a younger guy who seems like a reg with $200 stack, raises to $4. Two LP players call. I'm in the BB with [Ah][Kh] and 3-bet to $30. UTG calls. Heads up. Pot is about $63 after the rake. Flop [As][Tc][9d]. I check, UTG bets $40, I check-raise all-in for $95 total, UTG folds.

Bart has talked about checking over-pairs and similar hands in spots like this with low SPRs, because even if you miss a street of value you can still get all the money in by the river. Could check-calling the flop and check-calling the turn be the best play? Given that we are likely way ahead/way behind and just calling gives him an opportunity to keep bluffing or overplaying on the turn? Or, given how big the pot will be (relative to the effective stack size) once we call the flop bet, should we check-raise all in to protect our equity?

Hand 2:

$200 effective stacks. Player in EP limps, I am on the BTN with [Ad][Kd] and raise to $11, reg (villain from hand #1) calls from SB, the limper called. The pot is about $28 after the rake. Flop [Js][5d][3c]. SB checks, limper checks, I bet $20, they both called. Turn [Js][5d][3c] [8d]. SB and limper check, I check. River [Js][5d][3c] [8d] [6d]. SB checks, the limper bets $25, I raise to $65, the SB tank-folds, the limper calls.

To observant opponents, if we double barrel this turn our hand looks strong, and we could probably get such a player off of a weak jack. I wasn't sure how much hand reading these guys were trying to do so I checked it back. With two over-cards and the flush draw, and little chance of being check-raised, it seems like a pretty good spot to double-barrel, but should we double barrel if we don't expect to get someone off of a jack?

Your thoughts on the river sizing? I was thinking the river bettor usually has TP and I wanted to make it seem like my raise could be a bluff.

Hand 3:

We start the hand with about $300. Four players limp, I complete the SB with [Td][6d], BB checks. Six ways to flop of [Qd][8s][Jd]. I check, the BB, who has about $350 and has played few hands and no big pots, bets $10, three players call, I call. Turn [Qd][8s][Jd] [8c]. I check, BB checks, LP player bets $40, the BTN calls $40, I fold.

Any better way to play this hand?

Thanks for your help!!!

Comments

  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Hand 1:
    Either bet/bet/bet or check-call/check-shove seem fine with these stack sizes.
    Check-raising the flop looks sooo strong that you won't get called by any worse hand.

    Hand 2:
    Absolutely bet the turn! If you check behind, you can only win the hand if you hit. But if you bet the turn, you have two ways of winning the hand.
    Besides, In case you hit an Ace or King, it's difficult to win a big pot. The turn card gives you so much equity in the hand that you have to bet it.

    Hand 3:
    I would consider check-raising the flop in order to create fold equity. As you are out of position, it will get difficult to extract a lot of money in case you hit your flush, so you don't mind to end the hand right there. However, the board texture is very wet, so there are many straight draws, pair+ gutshot type hands, so the question is will the BB fold hands like JT, Q9, ... etc. to a check-raise? How call-happy is he, what is your image? If you think you will get called very often, I prefer the way you played it.
  • Hand 1: On the flop bet>check-call>check-raise. He has a lot of straight draws and you don't want to give him a free card when he has JQ, 78, KQ, etc. And he's calling with his weaker As (AQ, AJ, A8s, etc.). The only reason to check-call the flop is to induce a bluff. But with your large preflop raise and without a specific read, he's not bluffing enough here. Check-raising folds out all worse and doesn't allow him to continue bluffing.

    I think when Bart talks about flops with overpairs and low SPRs, he's referring to uncoordinated boards -- such as AA on a K72 rainbow flop. Where there are a ton of draws on the board, you should almost always be betting TPTK.

    Hand 2: I think I check back the turn too, for the reason you stated: I don't think we're moving anyone off of a J here. And since the flop is uncoordinated, when you get two callers on the flop cbet, someone definitely has a J. There's another consideration too: It's a nightmare if we get check-raised off of our nut-flush draw.

    Hand 3: I agree with whatsyourplay: check-raise the flop. You have a 12-out draw. You should be trying to create maximum fold equity. I'd bet a little under pot, maybe $50.
  • CrazyCBettor Posts: 46Member
    Hand 1: Why did you raise it so big preflop? I know you are out of position with AK but you are dissuading AQ/AJ to call. I would bet small on the flop (like 30), check blank turns and shove all rivers. I disagree that the way you played it check call is better than check shove, the guy must be a real idiot to bluff for 55 more when you already called 40 on the flop, by shoving we are charging him for 2 pair or trips draw. (I am not saying i prefer this line but if you check and he bets 40 i think check shove is right. Things would be different if you either had a bigger stack or the opponent bet small)

    Hand 2: I would always bet the turn. We have a lot of equity and as you described the first guy to be a regular he could fold something like JT. We will also get 99/TT to fold. I disagree that it is a nightmare necessarily if we get raised, in that case our AK is no good and we are drawing to a bare flush draw (that too without pairing the board).

    Hand 3: I don't really like check raising this flop even with our 12 out draw. As WYP said later there are many combo hands on this flop who would probably call you, getting through 4 people would be difficult. Also you will be out of position on the turn. I would play the way you did.
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    Jeremy K. said

    Hand 1: On the flop bet>check-call>check-raise. He has a lot of straight draws and you don't want to give him a free card when he has JQ, 78, KQ, etc. And he's calling with his weaker As (AQ, AJ, A8s, etc.). The only reason to check-call the flop is to induce a bluff. But with your large preflop raise and without a specific read, he's not bluffing enough here. Check-raising folds out all worse and doesn't allow him to continue bluffing.

    I think when Bart talks about flops with overpairs and low SPRs, he's referring to uncoordinated boards -- such as AA on a K72 rainbow flop. Where there are a ton of draws on the board, you should almost always be betting TPTK.
    I think that this logic is internally inconsistent; you are not giving enough thought as to what the villain's pre-flop calling range is. I don't think there exists a calling range that has a lot of straight draws here for the simple reason that calling ranges that include the straight draw hands are so wide that those hands are extremely diluted by others. For instance, if the villain is calling here with 78, then he is probably calling with a range that includes all suited connectors and big connected hands as well as all small to medium pairs. In addition, random straight draws don't have great equity against our hand, especially since we are only giving one free card and the good straight draws are quite likely to bet themselves in which case we can check-shove.
  • Chase Posts: 182Subscriber
    OminousCow said
    Jeremy K. said

    Hand 1: On the flop bet>check-call>check-raise. He has a lot of straight draws and you don't want to give him a free card when he has JQ, 78, KQ, etc. And he's calling with his weaker As (AQ, AJ, A8s, etc.). The only reason to check-call the flop is to induce a bluff. But with your large preflop raise and without a specific read, he's not bluffing enough here. Check-raising folds out all worse and doesn't allow him to continue bluffing.

    I think when Bart talks about flops with overpairs and low SPRs, he's referring to uncoordinated boards -- such as AA on a K72 rainbow flop. Where there are a ton of draws on the board, you should almost always be betting TPTK.
    I think that this logic is internally inconsistent; you are not giving enough thought as to what the villain's pre-flop calling range is. I don't think there exists a calling range that has a lot of straight draws here for the simple reason that calling ranges that include the straight draw hands are so wide that those hands are extremely diluted by others. For instance, if the villain is calling here with 78, then he is probably calling with a range that includes all suited connectors and big connected hands as well as all small to medium pairs. In addition, random straight draws don't have great equity against our hand, especially since we are only giving one free card and the good straight draws are quite likely to bet themselves in which case we can check-shove.
    Interesting point. Thanks for your response.
    Also, if the flop was two-tone I would be more likely to bet out, but this flop isn't that wet.
  • Chase Posts: 182Subscriber
    I've been thinking more about hand #2. The turn card gives us a lot of equity. If we bet the turn and get called by a jack, we will only be about a 2-1 dog, and so if we can get through on the turn sometimes, it seems like we should be betting at least $60. However, on a J53 rainbow flop, I'm concerned that the flop over-caller, who had limp-called from EP preflop, is highly likely to have a top pair. He can only really over call on this flop with top pair, or 66-TT. Some guys would always over-call with 77 here, but I think plenty of people would not. I also don't think he folds AJ, KJ, or QJ, and probably not JT on the turn.

    So if we were called on the flop by just one player, this is a great card to double barrel and we should almost always bet. But after an EP limp-caller over-calls on this flop, I think the majority of his range is TP+ and he will not fold the turn. And even if the EP player does have 66-TT, the SB could easily have TP.
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    Chase said

    I've been thinking more about hand #2. The turn card gives us a lot of equity. If we bet the turn and get called by a jack, we will only be about a 2-1 dog, and so if we can get through on the turn sometimes, it seems like we should be betting at least $60. However, on a J53 rainbow flop, I'm concerned that the flop over-caller, who had limp-called from EP preflop, is highly likely to have a top pair. He can only really over call on this flop with top pair, or 66-TT. Some guys would always over-call with 77 here, but I think plenty of people would not. I also don't think he folds AJ, KJ, or QJ, and probably not JT on the turn.

    So if we were called on the flop by just one player, this is a great card to double barrel and we should almost always bet. But after an EP limp-caller over-calls on this flop, I think the majority of his range is TP+ and he will not fold the turn. And even if the EP player does have 66-TT, the SB could easily have TP.
    Remember that if you have 0% fold equity and 33% pot equity, you break even when you bet the pot and are called. 66% of the time you lose one pot-sized bet and 33% of the time you win two pot-sized bets.

    You don't have quite that much pot equity against the JT-AJ, but you can offset that by not quite betting pot. Furthermore, you can play your hand pretty perfectly on the river while they are likely to make mistakes. This adds up to the turn bet actually generating quite a bit of solid value assuming no one raises you even if you never get folds.

    Say they both have a J with no A or K and your bet gets called in two spots. You are actually making money if the river always checks through since you have significantly more than the required 25% equity to break even (the profit comes from the dead money in the pot).
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    You can also barrel through if the river blanks, and villain will have a hard time caling you down with KJ-JT.
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