Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

2/4 KK deep facing aggression from a world class player

JeJoJeJo Posts: 56Member
edited July 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hey,

I played the following hand yesterday:

First about the villain:
- World class player; plays professionally highstakes online; has already shipped big live tourneys; steps by at the casino 20 times a year or so to relax from the online every day life
- joined our table when it was 2 hours left until the casino would have been closed
- I only have played with him twice for a short time; first time when we played a few years ago he successfully 4-bet rebluffed me preflop without having any history with me. (I dont think he remembers that hand)

My plan was obviously to avoid this guy. It was his 2nd hand, so I hadn't have seen much from his game:

Preflop: I (2000 deep) openraise to 20 from MP2 with K K , MP3 calls, CO calls, BU (big fish, 1500) calls, villain (3000$) in SB 3bets to 130, I call, rest folds


I call here for several reasons:
- I assumed his range was AK, AQs, TT+, bluffs with suited blockers and suited connectores
- it's a perfect squeeze spot for him, so I want him to continue on with his bluffs postflop
- I want him to valueown himself with hands like QQ-TT on certain flops
- I dont mind being 3way with the big fish behind me
- I assume he could 5-bet bluff me and I didn't really know how to react to a 5-bet from this player that deep.


Flop (324$): A 2 4
He Cbets 180, I call rather quickly

At this point I thought that he would CB his entire range including bluffs and TT+, maybe except for small Ax suited because they would be more WAWB for him. I called with the plan to pressumably call a second barrel on the turn.

Turn (684$): 6
He bets 460, whats your play ???

On the turn I tanked quite a bit because the sizing seemed quite polarizing to me. I didnt think he has AA or AK there because of the sizing and the blockers. Left are only some A2, A4, picked up flush and combodraws, right?

Do you go with it in this situation?
What do you think about the assumed 3bet range preflop and my thoughts preflop, on flop and turn?
Whats your play on the flop and the turn?
Tagged:
«1

Comments

  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    I'd fold. He can have a lot of Ax combos. From our perspective, we should have a lot if Ax combos that we can defend with. If we're looking to not be exploited, I'm not sure KK fits into our calling range on the turn.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    These guys bluff frequency always seems to be alot higher then the rest of the player pool. If you havent seen him three barrel bluff before then you could consider calling since that is a really dry board..

    He could have picked up a flush draw on the turn and is not trying to get you to fold a pair lower than an ace.. his sizing is rather large..

    that said if there are other fish at the table then I would tend to just fold and pick on them.

    ww
    by 1LVH
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    This is a 4bet preflop. The villain has already shown that he has the ability to play back pre-flop and if he is at all balanced he won't be able to fold good hands that are worse than yours. In fact it's quite likely that you will be able to extract significantly more from those hands by driving the betting. Getting villain to fold Ax suited pre-flop is not bad either; you were probably only going to get one more bet from those hands at most anyway.

    If you do not 4bet, you will be OOP to 3 other players and will allow the villain to play a flop.
  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    I like a 4 bet pre as well. I completely understand your reasoning for just flatting the 3bet and I like your plan, but.....guys like this are going to make your life hell on a lot of boards (just like this).

    There are plenty of other players you can go after, 4 bet this pre and drag a nice low stress win. The villain is 3betting from the SB over 4 players. Pretty polarizing......and there is just so many boards your going to get uncomfortable with.
  • LVH Posts: 171Member
    I don't know if you saw it but there was another thread about a hand with a "world class player" and the dude was basically just spazzing off all his money in a 2/5 game, or at least trying to. Now maybe this guy is legit, but he still might just not take the game seriously, or he still might not have patience for small stakes (to him) live play. You said he is playing just for fun or to unwind, which essentially makes him a rec player who probably didn't come to fold.

    During the WSOP I played with some guy who played a small game while waiting for a seat in 20/40 or something and several people seemed to know who he was. One thing that really impressed me was that he was giving full effort and full concentration. However he STILL misplayed a hand and got stacked because he didn't know how smaller rec players play. Long story short, he thought the other guy had a bluffing range and/or was sometimes overplaying top pair when that was just never the case. Presumably this was because that's what he was used to.

    So the strengths of a player like this (both a really good one and a wannabe who isn't utterly terrible) is that they will put you into difficult situations where you are in a guessing game for a lot of money. They will get max value from you when they hit something. Their weakness is that they overestimate the chances that other people are doing the same stuff they do, or they just spazz out, or they make mistakes driven by ego. So when you try to get tricky with them, you are playing to their strengths and when you just best hand them you are giving them chances to make mistakes.

    I think it's close and I think you have very good reasons for calling pre. I probably would have done the same thing, actually, intending to just let the guy fire away at me. However, sitting here thinking about it, I think the play is just to pot it. It's such an obvious squeeze spot, the chances of him having AA go way down. I think he's more likely to go nuts than have AA. He also knows it's an obvious squeeze spot. He might think you are scared with AK and blahblahblah. I think you can pot it with the intention of getting it in pre and if he has AA so be it.

    Like I said, I think the way you played pre is also profitable. It's bad luck that an A hit. However, maybe a guy like this has fewer As in his squeezing range than a regular live player. I don't really know. In any case, I'd call turn and lean towards folding river. He's put us into a guessing game as is his MO. We don't have to be winning that much to be profitable. By the river our hand looks like an ace (never folding) or a big pair (sometimes not folding). It's pretty hard for him to bluff that, though he can probably try.

    I don't think a fold is too bad though.
  • BradleyT Posts: 621SubscriberProfessional
    Some non-zero percentage of the time this guy has 0% equity in the hand right now and you have 100%. He is absolutely drawing dead with a bluff but you give it to him.

    You get the distinction "World Class" not because you're good at sitting back waiting for hands and then making money from fishes. No, you get that title because not only do you get paid for those hands but you steal away your opponents equity constantly.

    Doesn't mean we have to call here this deep but he's got 2-5X more bluff combos in his range than your average opponent.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    the problem with 4 betting is now we are basically turning over our hand and if he has say AK or AQ and shoves are we really going to stack off?

    thats the problem I have with 4 betting against a player who doesnt care about the money and has a 5 bet bluffing range.. one that probably has some equity against us..

    I prefer to just flat call and then call him down allowing him to bluff and value own his entire range. the ace on the flop just fucks that all up.. because honestly if he was threebet squeezing light he has alot of Ax hands in his range as blockers..

    he could even has Ax cc.. the ace wasnt a club and the big bet on the turn would indicate he wants you to go away. what changed? the 6c only brings in 35 which was already the nuts.. there I would think he just value bets and these tourney players are always sizing small for value and large for bluffs and nutty hands..



    ww
    by 1JeJo
  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    the problem with 4 betting is now we are basically turning over our hand and if he has say AK or AQ and shoves are we really going to stack off?
    Yes, we are definitely not 4betting to fold. The fact that he likely has a semi-bluff range and a value range worse than KK that he continues with is the reason we are 4betting.
    Thehammah said:

    thats the problem I have with 4 betting against a player who doesnt care about the money and has a 5 bet bluffing range.. one that probably has some equity against us..
    This increases the value of putting in money pre against this player.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    so OC ... I guess this basic type of hand has come up a few times in the last couple of weeks and I ask this basic thought process

    I always think of things in economic theory. ie .. why are we playing in a manner that is higher variance against a good player when there is alot easier money against worst players.

    If we infact stack off by calling a 5 bet shove from this guy and in fact he does have A5 cc and hit his hand and we lose to his 30% equity semi bluff.. what is our economic loss from now having a bad image or leaving and now not able to win money against the worst players?

    see thats my problem with these types of scenarios.. are we in a +ev situation with this opponent? probably yes... are we in the MOST +ev spot against the play at our table? I would say a resounding NO!

    poker isnt always about always taking every plus ev spot ..but taking the most plus ev spot.. most of the time they are the same but in these spots I think they are not.. and if we lose big in this hand that prevents us from making alot more money in other spots then I think we just need to pass..

    am I the only one that thinks this way? Is this wrong? I mean I dont have an infinite bankroll and no one does so we cant just think of these in a vacuum

    ww
  • Which Posts: 7Member
    think about folding the flop

  • JeJoJeJo Posts: 56Member
    Thanks a lot for the input.

    I see that this is a very difficult spot against a really good player as his range seems to be basically anything but rather weighed towards weaker hands as it was a perfect spot for him to squeeze.

    The problem in 4 betting him is that I thought he would 5bet balanced enough to make my life to hell. Just because he would have some bluffs in his 5bet range doesnt make our stack off with KK profitable if he only 5bets AA and some few bluff combos, right?
    And which weaker holdings could he call to a 4bet OOP when he never gets the right odds to call with a PP or a speculative hand? Besides, from his perspective my range is pretty capped to KK+, AK when I 4bet there if he perceives me as a standard live reg.

    I ended up folding there and he showed down a 6 . Now I think we shouldnt call the flop if we know that he will double barrel a lot of turns and if we at the same time are not 100% sure that we will have the balls to call a 2nd barrel.

    Can we ever call the turn if we assume that he could try to bluff us with small Ax? I mean it would be a desaster if I call the turn, we check river and he shows down A6. Or do we have to ship the river then if he checks to us again and basically turn our hand into a bluff against his small Ax?

    @hammah
    I always have a kind of a problem to make my decisions depend on how strong the rest of the table is. The lineup changes steadily. Dont forget: its one big session, so you would have to go one step further and make your decisions depend on how strong your playerpool is.
    In this case I actually also thought while I was folding that I would find better spots to make some money on this table but in reallity I think its more important if you will make more money against your playerpool, isnt it? If you happened to be in a tough lineup why would you make this sort of a call when you could just move to another table and play in a softer game?
    About your economic theory: I also think that from time to time you can avoid some scenarios where you put a huge part of your bankroll at risk to be in a spot where you are a slight favorite. But I believe that in this specific situation its rather the optimal play of our opponent that makes the situation marginally +ev. If I knew he was unbalanced there than I would take the chance all day long as a 2 to 1. In my opinion If you not taking spots in poker where you know that you are that much of a favorite as 2 to 1 you are probably playing at higher stakes than you are comfortable to.
  • JKH Posts: 835Subscriber
    4 bet pre flop and hope u can get it in & here is why :
    1. he has a 5 bet bluffing range
    2. unlike a lot of solid 5 dollar blind game players he will get it in pre flop for value with less than kk
    3 he is smart and skilled take flops with fish not smart skilled players
    4 shooting it up pre flop with kk is a great way to play against good players & seeing flops is what u want to do with fish. By shooting it up pre-flop you neutralize the players skill

    you put yourself in a tough situation because this player is good enough to be value betting the turn and betting air / a draw the worst part is unlike other players u play he is most likely balanced in this spot.
    provided u are properly rolled for the game i suggest trying to stack off pre flop in this spot against this player
  • JKH Posts: 835Subscriber
    I think u should 4 bet & make it large
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    JeJo said:

    @hammah
    I always have a kind of a problem to make my decisions depend on how strong the rest of the table is. The lineup changes steadily. Dont forget: its one big session, so you would have to go one step further and make your decisions depend on how strong your playerpool is.
    In this case I actually also thought while I was folding that I would find better spots to make some money on this table but in reallity I think its more important if you will make more money against your playerpool, isnt it? If you happened to be in a tough lineup why would you make this sort of a call when you could just move to another table and play in a softer game?
    About your economic theory: I also think that from time to time you can avoid some scenarios where you put a huge part of your bankroll at risk to be in a spot where you are a slight favorite. But I believe that in this specific situation its rather the optimal play of our opponent that makes the situation marginally +ev. If I knew he was unbalanced there than I would take the chance all day long as a 2 to 1. In my opinion If you not taking spots in poker where you know that you are that much of a favorite as 2 to 1 you are probably playing at higher stakes than you are comfortable to.
    I'll just expand on this rant a little bit. I think this site in general preaches a lot about the importance of game selection and beating up on the weaker players. I think it is a massive leak to completely avoid the stronger players and leads to a lot of excuses for not taking +EV lines.

    For instance, a tough reg opens MP and we have AK in the hijack. We decide to flat to keep in the two fish behind that call 50% of hands and stack off light. This an acceptable adjustment. Another example, a tough reg opens MP. We 3 bet from the hijack with only KK+. This is not an acceptable adjustment. Unfortunately for most tags, they fall into this category and over adjust to the tough player and make the tough player's life a cake walk.

    It is true that we should focus on beating weaker players and exploiting their weaknesses. It is a lot easier to find their leaks and find solutions to beat their weak strategies. For tougher players, it may be harder. They may have a pf bet sizing tell. Maybe they open too wide in early position. Maybe they never bluff if the obvious draws miss. Maybe they always bluff the flush card. Maybe their over bets tend to always be for value or always a bluff. These are harder to find, but it doesn't mean we should ignore their leaks. It doesn't mean that because they can hand read, we shouldn't have a bluffing range.

    Also, every time we make these bad adjustments (like on 3 betting KK+ or never bluff raising the flop or whatever), our opponents are effectively exploiting us since they can make easy adjustments. For instance, say a tough player opens, a tag that stays out of the way flats. The flop comes AT5r. The tag c/c. Turn is a 3. The tag c/r a set and the tough opponent folds AX. How many times have we folded Ax in this spot against a fish because weaker players never have a bluffing range in this spot and always have 2 pair or better? We are playing so straightforward that he his making easy adjustments and playing like we are the fish! Think about how easy it is to play against someone who is tight and always takes low variance lines and always has the goods. This is what we are doing when we don't construct preflop and postflop bluffing ranges against good players. They can just fold versus the nit.

    Basically, we shouldn't cap our learning just because they are good and there are easier targets. That's the difference between someone that crushes and people who are small winners. If you want to become the best player you can be, you need to work on beating everyone.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    JasonHungle said:


    you put yourself in a tough situation because this player is good enough to be value betting the turn and betting air / a draw the worst part is unlike other players u play he is most likely balanced in this spot.
    provided u are properly rolled for the game i suggest trying to stack off pre flop in this spot against this player
    But isn't this a problem because the flop came A high? If it came Q, J, ten high or 622r, are we in the same tough spot?

    I'm not saying that we should definitely flat pre, but that's just something to think about and playing devils advocate. I think it really comes down to how we want to defend a range vs him. Do we want any flatting range? What hands fit well into the flatting range? If we want to 4 bet for value, what bluffs should we use with them?

    I think we can make arguments for either play, but it should depend on how we play our range , not just our hand.

  • OminousCowOminousCow Posts: 702Subscriber
    @Thehammah, this really depends on how you view variance and how solid your mental game is. When I play, I try to make +EV decisions whenever I can and I really work on trying to ignore the money involved. This attitude is absolutely necessary to be a really good and relentless winning cash game player.

    Avoiding even vaguely close spots like this KK hand because they will result in swings will kill many parts of your game such as light 3betting, thin value betting, bluffing, etc... You might have smaller swings being more conservative but your win rate will be far, far lower and you will put a cap on your learning and progress.

    Something else to point out is that I am skeptical that you can count on finding a more +EV pre-flop spot than this one in a given session. In addition, 4betting itself pre-flop will probably be much less swingy than calling since the villain will fold a large chunk of the time. Once the hand hits the 5bet branch of the tree (which it probably won't) is when we descend into the really swingy territory.

    @JeJo, our read here is that the villain's 3betting range is really wide. As a result, he cannot 5bet you in a balanced way without folding a huge portion of the time. It is also very unlikely that he will in fact 5bet in a balanced way for the same reason that his 3betting range is overly wide: our read is that he is going to try to run you over.

    If you are worried about your own 4betting range, you should be adding 4bet-fold hands yourself (i.e. the sort of hands you are worried about him 5betting bluffing with) in addition to having a value range.
  • Which Posts: 7Member
    edited July 2014
    DrGambol said:


    But isn't this a problem because the flop came A high? If it came Q, J, ten high or 622r, are we in the same tough spot?

    I'm not saying that we should definitely flat pre, but that's just something to think about and playing devils advocate. I think it really comes down to how we want to defend a range vs him. Do we want any flatting range? What hands fit well into the flatting range? If we want to 4 bet for value, what bluffs should we use with them?

    I think we can make arguments for either play, but it should depend on how we play our range , not just our hand.

  • Which Posts: 7Member
    edited July 2014
    Nice post DG, but you need to go deeper...

    It is in fact the "deep" stacks that would give me pause. What's our plan when we get 5b ( and to what size 4b are we suggesting?). Will we 6b or perhaps just flat?

    Post flop action should be interesting !!

    Except for the nuts we should never be comfortable stacking off vs a "world class" player for 500bbs.

    Your results may vary

    Pretty sure flatting KK pre is correct anything much north of 200bbs

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    But then does that beg that villain has to feel us capable of bluff four betting for him to shove as a rebluff?

    Based on ops description i doubt it. Which makes our range not balanced but pretty much kk aa and maybe ak.

    Also if we have not played villain that much how do we know that he is balancing and playing more a gto strategy rather than exploitive?

    I do tend to focus on fish but thats just because i dont find many bart level players in my game. And i dont believe my wom rate has suffered because i choose to fold kk on a ace high board against a very very good player.

    Also given that villain didnt show both cards makes it very likely he had min two pair. Players like this love to show you a bluff thinking it will tilt hero. Because he didnt i think a6 66 are likely holdings.

    Ww
  • Which Posts: 7Member
    Thehammah said:
    And i dont believe my wom rate has suffered because i choose to fold kk on an A hi board against a very very good player.

    Ww
    How would you know this unless they turn their cards over?

    Folding big pots consistently when a single over card hits vs "very very good players" could be a player pools' biggest leak (collectively)

    Which

Sign In or Register to comment.