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$2/5 River Play in $500 Cap Game

turkeydateturkeydate Posts: 24Subscriber
edited July 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
my first time in the forums here, but i've been thinking about this hand and wanted some feedback other than from friends i've already spoken with. hand was at borgata where the $2/5 is a $500 cap.

super late - 6AMish - two dudebros with club wristbands come to table, one clearly drunker than the other, but both a bit tipsy. less tipsy one sits to my direct left. we chat socially and i can tell he has a bit of a clue even if he keeps mentioning how he's wasted. we get the table into a little us vs. them action talking shit to the other end (in jest obv) about how our end of the table is awesome and their end is donks and we're gonna fuck them up. i took a piss and missed the hand, but when i came back he had just doubled up to $600ish after losing a bit from his original $400 buy-in.

i sit down to AKo in the BB and make it $25 over two limps. dudebro to my left calls and everyone else folds. i tell him this is against the rules and dudebros at the same end of the table don't civil war each other. he has the $600ish mentioned above and i cover.

flop ($60): A34ss (ace not a spade, i have ace of spades). i bet $30 and he instacalls.

turn ($120): 10o. i bet $55 and he raises to $135. i think for maybe ten seconds and call.

river ($390): 2s. i check he bets $175.

i'm not a big fan of my turn sizing. i think it should have been larger and considered in the moment that perhaps my small sizing induced a bluff raise. this is maybe the only argument for a river call, but i don't really have enough time at the table with this guy to reliably gauge his propensity to bluff the river in order to justify a check/call. it's possible that my anti-dudebro-civil-war comment could make him think i'm playing more straightforwardly against him and therefore should lay down the largest part of my range here. yeah i know lol at him thinking that deeply, but i think he could pick up on that sort of dynamic subconsciously.


  • the_glove Posts: 31Subscriber
    How many hands have you seen him play? Need to know how loose he was limping/limp-calling pre-flop to know how many 5s and small spades he can have.

    His line is strange for a bluff - then pretty much every semi-bluff gets there on the river. Also, if he was bluffing, he has about a pot-sized shove left on the river but opts to bet less than half pot.

    Given that you've built up a rapport with him and he's drunk, why not just ask him where he's at? Or ask him something random to get a reaction. He's your dudebro afterall, there's no need for dude-on-dude violence.
  • turkeydateturkeydate Posts: 24Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    yeah i wish i had been there for his double up hand. he had been at the table for a couple orbits and all i'd seen of his play were a few PFRs followed by two c-bets (one successful, one where he folded to a raise) and one check/fold after a PFR. that bled him down to his $300ish stack that got doubled up the previous hand.
  • Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
    I like the idea of asking dudebro what his hand is.

    As played I don't think he is bluffing here. The flush gets there and the straight. And I think his raise on the turn is likely a made hand. So between those two factors I think you are beat.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    most insta calls are either draws or tp type hands.. many recs will play virtually any ace so I am not generally going to fold to that river bet.. that said you are correct that your turn sizing was pretty bad.. I dont think players that are obv rec and drunk are going to level themselves..but in his mind he probably says something like I have top pair and I should raise..

    since the board is so wet I doubt he has two pair or better as most players would raise flop to protect those hands.. He could have hit Aces and tens on the turn.. ..

    now when a four liner to a straight and the spade comes on the river I am just really having a hard time figuring out what value hand he could have ..maybe A5.. I dont think he has a flush..but A5 is a possibility..

    how much did he have left after the bet? If he left himself like $75

  • turkeydateturkeydate Posts: 24Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    agreed with wendy's second para above: i took two shitty wheel pair hands out of his range when he bet the spade. and to answer re: stack size, he had $235ish left after his river bet.

    i don't see a lot of bad or breakeven rec players raise a spade draw on the turn. and as i said, i had the ace of spades, so he can't have top pair and spade draw.

    and you guys are probably right that i should have continued with the table talk after the bet to get something out of him. he was certainly in the mindset we'd like to target (social, a bit drunk) with that kind of tactic.

    in a way, this presents sort of a counterfactual for those folks who argue that if you call turn, you have to call river if nothing changes. well, the board has changed dramatically here. the flush card hit and now there's a one-liner to a straight. obv he could very easily have had AT when he raised the turn, but does he fire the river with AT?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Actually now that the flush card hit he is actually polarized betting that river.. honestly I am more likely to call now that he bet and still has significant money behind.. I just really dont see that many players bet when the obvious draw comes in.. and as you said he cant have top pair and a flush draw.. Is he really betting two pair on that board? not likely..

    thats why I was curious how much he had left after his bet.. now I am calling for sure.. maybe lose to a weirdly played two pair or A5..but he has more Aces in his range that he is betting either because he has no clue and is like "i have top pair" or he is bluffing

  • LVH Posts: 171Member
    I'd call. It's a strange hand. I'd be pretty surprised for him to show up with A-T here. If he'd bet A-t on such a scary board, would he bet A-q or AK? 2-5 suited or sets would not totally shock me, though you'd think they would play more of a "get it in" line.. A total bluff would not shock me. Really, nothing makes all that much sense, as so many hands that are happy on the turn are scared by the river. You're dealing with a drunk who struck out at the club and who just won a big pot. You've shown some weakness and his line doesn't really add up that well. It's $175 to win $565. I just call.

    I'm not saying "if you call turn you have to call river," but his turn raise is just generally scarier to me than the river bet. I'd probably call it based on the player, but generically I don't think a fold is going to cost you much, if anything there. I agree though, that you could call, then fold to a river bet a lot. Just not in this case.

    I also think you can bet more like $45 on the flop.
  • turkeydateturkeydate Posts: 24Subscriber
    thanks for the feedback, all. i thought briefly about it and couldn't make sense of a turn raise and then a river bet on that board, so called. he just said, "good call," and mucked.

    certainly think i should have bet larger on flop and turn and river is prob a questionable call against a thinking player, but with this guy maybe it's the right play.
  • fishcake Posts: 1,002Subscriber
    Bet flop and turn bigger. Call as played. Villain's line makes no sense.
  • DFN Posts: 86Subscriber
    just know that if you bet the flop and turn bigger he probably doesn't get to the river and ship you the extra buck seventy five or his river bet will now be even bigger. so in hind site you played it perfectly to extract the most with a bluff catcher with the least amount at risk. think positive!

  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I don't think villain is necessarily as polarized as it might first appear. If hero checks to me on the river, I'm absolutely value betting any 2 pair, any straight, any flush, and AK. That makes it much tougher to bluff catch with AK imo.

    The factors in favor of bluff catching include: he's a dude bro, it's 6am and he's been drinking , it's tough to beat AK on an ace high flop, he gives hero a decent price.
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