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AQo top two on drawy board

Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 578Subscriber
edited July 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I was really bothered by this line with top 2. This hand went down the other night in a $300 capped game. Myself and the two other players in the hand were the only ones deeper than 100BB at the table....I think there are several mistakes here and each one made the next one tougher to make.

Reads... Villain 1 (Asian 50 ish) has shown down KK and AA...The KK hand he sighed before calling another's AI on a QTX rb board...he was good for a 100bb win. The AA hand he had flatted my reraise of a $10 open to $50 when I had KQ and he had A A in position and he just called down the flop and turn on a K T 6 flop and a 4th spade came on the turn and he just called again and he DIDN'T bet the river when the 6 paired!!....I had seen him check raise another player in a small pot with a flush draw and gutter and he showed it.

Villain 2 isn't too important in the hand but he has been calling down with any pair and looks very weak and passive and is in too many pots.

Hero is up to $775 and V1 covers...V2 has about $500. Hero has an aggressive but winning image. V1 raised earlier and w 6 callers I reraised w AQs and won a big pot when I flopped Q hi and stack another player after several others called PF. Villain said I was lucky and he had folded TT on the flop..

Stacks Hero - $775
Villain 1 -~$900
Villain 2 - $500

Hero raises 2ta to $20 with A Q, V1 in HJ, V2 calls in BB.
Flop ($~60) A Q 3 Hero bets $35, V1 min raises to $70, V2 folds, Hero raises to $145, Villain re-raises to $250.....Hero calls (?!)
Turn (~$560) T Hero checks (?!) Villain bets $210, Hero shoves for $295 more.


  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    so we know this guy slowplays made hands and raises with big draws.. based on op description he is a typical bad player in my book..

    so what do bad players do with big made hands on wet boards? they raise big to protect.. here he min raised.. I would put him on an ace pretty much all the time..

    my question to you is why bet threebet? I find it very difficult to get called by an ace..

    this betting line looks like a leveling war.. that said if villain is passive like you say what hands would he call your raise preflop?

    AQ for same hand, Ax suited so he can have dias and top pair.. 33, QQ not likely AA not likely, A3

    considering the flush draw missed (although unless he had Ax dia I am not sure how he can have a flush draw) I am happy to ship it and probably would have done it on the flop.. KJ is the only draw that comes in the turn and like I said he really shouldnt have a KJdd cuz of the min raise.

    actually the more I think about it the ace high flush draw fits this line of betting. He might even have ATdd.. hitting two pair on the turn..

    considering in reality based on card elminiation I think we have the nuts.. I just dont see many players min raising sets on boards with flush draws..

    sorry for the long post..thats just how I work it all out..

  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 578Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    I was kind of in a fog when he 4 bet the flop but it really shouldn't matter...if he has hit 33 or somehow AA/QQ (unlikely) then I don't think I can ever fold without some crazy read so I need to play this hand like the nutz, extracting value from worse and getting value from draws...I think where I really messed this up was that I was too busy thinking about the AA hand and actually considered that I was dead to a set when I should have been thinking about what hands I beat that would play this way (especially when I had an aggressive image. I should have realized that AX and other combo/gutter straight flush draws are a large part of his range and that he would never play AK this way or AJ and AT unless it was exactly AT. I made the following list of mistakes in this hand that make it awkward;...

    1) too small of a flop bet (35 into 60 yes will get calls from AX hands but they will still call more...If I get the read that he has an AX hand then I can make a smaller % bet on turn and river and still get called.
    2) too small of a re-raise on the flop...If he has AX or a combo straight flush draw then he isn't going to fold and I need to raise bigger to commit myself and him and make it easier to get the money in...Not to mention there is a chance he will find a fold with A3s or Tx on the turn if a scare card/over hits or a diamond hits and I bet and the action is killed...
    3) flatting the small 4 bet? If I think I'm beat I guess there is a rare fold but I don't see it on this drawy board especially with the chance he has the same hand, a flush draw or A3s....I should just get it in unless I think he is ever playing AX this way.
    4) CR the turn?...I should have led the turn big to prevent him from taking a free card...This is the biggest mistake but it worked out that he bet if I wanted him to commit himself. This is a disaster if he has AJ or KT, Qt and he checks...I did have the feeling and read that he was going to bet any turn when I flatted but that is not a justification.

    In reality...I was a big scared at the strength of his line and considered that I was beat and went into a call shell on the flop after the 4 bet, not expecting i.,In the end, I realized that he had AT, Tx and A3s in his range so I shoved.....is that a decent analysis of the hand??
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    the key in my mind to this hand was his playing so slow with made hands and draws so aggro.. thats so important to putting him on a range. if he had flopped a set would he really just min raise? thats like the opposite of his behavior.. I would suspect that he raises big with a set of 3s or just calls waiting for a "safe" turn card..

    so given he doesnt have a set what other hands does a fish min raise on that board? I for one have seen many a nit min raise a pair of aces and the nut flush draw a ton.. they dont hand read all they know is in tournies thats like the nuts.. but as Bart has said numerous times if you have top pair as the pfr you generally have the guy drawing to just 13 outs.. ie you are a huge fav and you can get all the money in cuz they never fold that "monster"

    in the end you came to the right conclusion in my mind but yeah you got a little scared by his earlier tricky play.. no problemo..

    I also wouldnt beat yourself up too much.. just remember that in like 99% of the situations playing your hand straightforward against fish is best.. Your min raise to his 3 bet was the biggest mistake but not huge compared to if you both had more money.. then you are letting him get away ..

    when he bet threebets he is never folding and just get it in.. of course after you analayze and see you basically have the nuts..

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    oh btw I doubt he has Tx... at all.. he was super aggro on the previous hand you described when he had a big draw.. he would want someone to fold.. so Tx is not likely imho.. Ax dd and ATdd and A3 are his most likely holding..

    cant wait to find out if I am right :-)

  • Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
    edited July 2014
    I do not really see anything wrong with flatting the 4bet on the flop and letting him commit himself on the turn. I would like it better if you were in position so if he did check the turn you still had the chance to raise, but normally a person that plays a draw fast on the flop is going to see the check as weakness and go for it on the turn. Then he is pot committed and def getting it in.

    Oh I am putting him on a range of A X or maybe A× 3×
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Topset1610 said:
    I do not really see anything wrong with flatting the 4bet on the flop and letting him commit himself on the turn. I would like it better if you were in position so if he did check the turn you still had the chance to raise, but normally a person that plays a draw fast on the flop is going to see the check as weakness and go for it on the turn. Then he is pot committed and def getting it in.

    Oh I am putting him on a range of A X or maybe A× 3×
    I would really disagree with this. If effective stacks were alot deeper and i was up against a player who could bet threebet fold then maybe I would consider flatting..

    villain has put in $250 on the flop has 650 left. It would be a disaster if a scare card (like a Q or K) comes off scaring villain from committing his stack.. no need to play tricky here.. no fish is bet threebetting and folding..

  • Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
    WW are you saying to ship or click it back? I think some fish will get away from a draw if you shipped over the top for $500 more. That would give the player 2 to 1 on pot odds and I actually do think some people will get away from this. Especially a player in the past that reluctantly called with KK on a Q high board and did not bet the river with the nut flush when the board paired. He likes to play draws fast, but by shoving you are not giving him the chance to play them fast. Instead you are making him commit a large amount of money with a draw.

    My opinion might be biased since this line would have worked very well in this specific spot.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    but it would also work if you have villain on lots of two pairs and top pair with nut flush draws.. that where the range analysis comes in too..

    now if the player was a nitty player that I have seen fold then of course I would have flatted his threebet and get it in on turn.
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 578Subscriber
    I was pretty confident that he wasn't folding once he 4 bet the flop and that he would bet most turns...when I realized this I checked with the intention of shoving even tho I now think it was a mistake...If I wanted all the money in I should just 3 bet bigger and lead turn or flat call the 4 bet and lead turn.
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 578Subscriber
    Any problem with the cbet size?...I was thinking 45 was more ideal after the fact even tho I was kinda targeting AJ/AT/AX hands
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Its a little small but fine.
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