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When is Limp Reraising Ok?

aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Ok, so limp reraising big pairs in your normal run of the mill 5/10 NL game is usually bad as it gets everything weaker to fold and allows good players to set mine and play perfectly against you. I understand that. Recently, however, the 5/10 game I've been playing in has been playing super crazy with $50+ utg raises seeing flops 4 ways (min), $250+ squeezes from aggressives, etc. My question is in this type of game is it ok to limp reraise if you can expect a raise and multiple calls in front of you and degens calling huge limp reraises with their entire range? Does this not seem preferable than raising $50 utg and playing a $300 flop oop?

Thoughts from Bart and all appreciated.

Comments

  • Aaron,

    Obviously there is no right answer here, but if there are a ton of squeezetards in there wouldn't you want to give them a chance to three bet you and the dead money?

    I perosnally have no problem playing AA multiway from OOP. The reason why I would limp reraise is if the dynamic were such that you had a few guys that would literally open almost always from late position. There you get a bit more value then just raising.

    Bart
  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    Yeah I agree that it works out well if someones going to squeeze. I guess in a game that's playing crazy/gambly where I've been adjusting by playing tighter, the table is probably going to call in this spot as opposed to 3 betting. If I raised to $50 UTG and get 4 callers (minimum in this game) I'm playing a $250 pot, oop, with 300-400bbs. Against straight forward villians this is fine but against guys who I've seen 4 betting 9 high on paired boards with endless supplies of money and lots of gamble, I'm going to be put in awkward spots a lot of the time.

    The theory I'm toying with in this special type of dynamic is open limping, getting raised to $50 (almost 100%), having 3-4 callers behind that raise, and then reraising the $200-250 dead money to $350 and still getting a caller or two. If you think this is how the hand will play out, does it make more sense to limp reraise since effectively you're still getting weaker to call but getting and extra $350-$700 value pre while thinning the field at the same time? The only disadvantage I can think of here is a gambly (yet thinking) player can now assign me a very narrow range (AK,JJ-AA) and play nearly perfect against me.

    Thoughts?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    The ONLY time I think its ok to limp reraise is if you are short stack and can get your whole stack in with the three-bet.. Otherwise I think in this day and age there are just too many players who understand generally what this means and you will get them to fold everything you dominate. Here is an example... recently I had AA utg+1 I open for a standard raise... In the blinds I got threebet by a tight player who had almost 250 in the 2/3 game.. I have him covered. If I moved in or reraised I would have gotten him to fold. I just flatted .. the flop came 9 high and I got his whole stack on the flop..that just would not have happened if I had limped then three bet.. he would have folded..

    h
  • aaronrosenthal said

    Yeah I agree that it works out well if someones going to squeeze. I guess in a game that's playing crazy/gambly where I've been adjusting by playing tighter, the table is probably going to call in this spot as opposed to 3 betting. If I raised to $50 UTG and get 4 callers (minimum in this game) I'm playing a $250 pot, oop, with 300-400bbs. Against straight forward villians this is fine but against guys who I've seen 4 betting 9 high on paired boards with endless supplies of money and lots of gamble, I'm going to be put in awkward spots a lot of the time.

    The theory I'm toying with in this special type of dynamic is open limping, getting raised to $50 (almost 100%), having 3-4 callers behind that raise, and then reraising the $200-250 dead money to $350 and still getting a caller or two. If you think this is how the hand will play out, does it make more sense to limp reraise since effectively you're still getting weaker to call but getting and extra $350-$700 value pre while thinning the field at the same time? The only disadvantage I can think of here is a gambly (yet thinking) player can now assign me a very narrow range (AK,JJ-AA) and play nearly perfect against me.

    Thoughts?
    This really sounds like IMO compensation for being uncomfortable in big pots post flop and potentially making thin value based decisions. I would much rather make a standard raise from EP and give them a chance to 3b and make a mistake. If you know one of the lp players is super aggressive, you are setting up the perfect opportunity for them to squeeze/3b and you can play from there with your big hand.

    It's always a nightmare when you limp/over limp AA etc... and see the flop 8 handed in a tiny pot.
  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    Yeah, I'm not sure the dynamic of the game came across and this is not a 2/5, 1/2 game. This is a 5/10 where people are gambly, making moves, aggressive, and all sitting at least 300bb deep. This has nothing to do with playing a big pot oop. It has more to do with what is the most profitable line given the current scenario. Remember limp reraising is usually bad because it folds out everything worse. But what if everything worse still called?

    I definitely agree with the logic of raising your hand and letting someone 3b/squeeze in front which plays out great. The alternative line in a game like this is the one I'm exploring which involves a) thinning the field, b) picking up dead money, c) still getting 1 or 2 callers with a large sized squeeze (i.e. not folding out everything worse. these guys are gamblers), and d) Getting the SPR to approximately 3 with 300bbs. Additionally, due to the strength I have shown and seemingly little fold equity, it has an effect of making players play their hands in a straight forward manner and creates a much easier situation to read.

    Per Bart's last statement, " The reason why I would limp reraise is if the dynamic were such that you had a few guys that would literally open almost always from late position."

    I've put in around 1400 hours of 5/10 at this point and very rarely limp reraise but in games like this I'm starting to reconsider.
  • I'm not doubting that it would work, and I have used it as a deviation from a typical (for my style) line that I would take. I just hate to do something that relies on needing other players to cooperate. There have been so many times I was sure I knew what a V was going to do, only to have it backfire.

    BTW - I wasn't attempting to sound haughty with my comment about not wanting to play a big pot oop, that was just the way it came off to me. It certainly wasn't a personal attack :-)
  • Aaron,

    I think you strategy is something to consider if you are getting calls from worse to your limp reraise. Now you are literally doing it for value as well as thinning out the field somewhat. But in this case I may do so with a wider range for value besides AA and KK.

    Bart
  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    All good. I probably sound defensive. Just trying to have a heated debate about the subject and get to the root of the situation.
    ZachZ-H said

    I'm not doubting that it would work, and I have used it as a deviation from a typical (for my style) line that I would take. I just hate to do something that relies on needing other players to cooperate. There have been so many times I was sure I knew what a V was going to do, only to have it backfire.

    BTW - I wasn't attempting to sound haughty with my comment about not wanting to play a big pot oop, that was just the way it came off to me. It certainly wasn't a personal attack :-)
  • I think OVER limp re-raising is okay when an aggressive opponent who is capable of iso-raising raises and is capable of laying down to 3bets. I hate it mostly in every other situation. Just raise and play your hand post flop. I love when someone limps, I raise and it gets back to them and they 3bet. It's such an easy fold and I have no chance of getting value owned post flop when they do this.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    fishcake said

    I think OVER limp re-raising is okay when an aggressive opponent who is capable of iso-raising raises and is capable of laying down to 3bets. I hate it mostly in every other situation. Just raise and play your hand post flop. I love when someone limps, I raise and it gets back to them and they 3bet. It's such an easy fold and I have no chance of getting value owned post flop when they do this.
    This exact situation has happened to me at least three or four times in the last month. I laid down AK, KK two times and QQ once. Each time the villain has aces and I laughed all the way to the cashier.. One player even told me to fold and I said "because you have aces" and she showed me AA.. lol..
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    On another note as to why NOT to limp and reraise.. Fishcake talked about value owning yourself if you get limped three bet. If you raise with Aces and get three bet then you can value own the other guy. Of course this is highly dependent on stack sizes but I have done pretty well in my 100bbs game by just flatting the three bet and then check raising the flop or just calling each street.

    I especially love this play when the three bettor is fairly tight or aggressive and would generally fold to a four bet.

    h
  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    Laying down KK twice preflop in a month means you are playing way too tight and being exploited.
    wendyweissman said
    fishcake said

    I think OVER limp re-raising is okay when an aggressive opponent who is capable of iso-raising raises and is capable of laying down to 3bets. I hate it mostly in every other situation. Just raise and play your hand post flop. I love when someone limps, I raise and it gets back to them and they 3bet. It's such an easy fold and I have no chance of getting value owned post flop when they do this.
    This exact situation has happened to me at least three or four times in the last month. I laid down AK, KK two times and QQ once. Each time the villain has aces and I laughed all the way to the cashier.. One player even told me to fold and I said "because you have aces" and she showed me AA.. lol..
  • Well if they're showing her Aces she's been right. It's been awhile since I laid down Kings though, I agree.
  • ShawnCrichley Posts: 11Member
    I'm surprised you can get callers with a limp re-raise. I think it's almost best to do this as a bluff against some regs that are constantly iso-ing limpers. Some regs cannot help themselves and over isolate. Preferably with hands you would 3-bet light with in position. First with premium high card blockers (to cut 4-bet freq), then suited aces and middling suited connectors (in case have to play post-flop). Still not sure this is plus EV, but should slow down isoing.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    fishcake said

    Well if they're showing her Aces she's been right. It's been awhile since I laid down Kings though, I agree.
    I am not sure the nature of your all games....but the games I have been playing AND my player reads basically the situations were that each of these 4 bets could only be AA. I am not going to call off with anything if the range can only be AA. Unless I am getting 4:1 I will fold and increase my win rate accordingly.

    the question I would ask yourselves is if you arent folding qq or kk against an obvious player who has no 4 bet shoving bluff range then what can you beat? In my games this happens all the time.

    I am pretty proud of my laying down numerous crushed hands when up against AA

    Wendy
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    aaronrosenthal said

    Laying down KK twice preflop in a month means you are playing way too tight and being exploited.
    Nothing in live no limit is absolute. There is no way you can make this statement with any certainty.
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