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Playing a Monster Draw Passively

wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I know playing passive is losing poker for the most part but here's a situation where I played passive for reasons. Opinions?

Hero: AhKh.

I raise from cutoff to 20 (2-5 game) with AhKh. Get 4 callers. Flop comes 10c 5h 8h. (Pot 87). Normally I bet this but for some reason I chked. Button bets 40 and a guy who is a pure fish who will stack off if he hits his flush calls. Folded to me. I just call.I know this is normally a raise but my thought was if I heart came I KNOW I was going to stack the fish. I put him on hearts. I therefore played this hand passively, not too sure that was the way to go though. Turn was a 6d. CHk Chk and button bets $50. I figure he has a 10. Me and the fish call. River was a Qd-brick for me. CHk chk chk. The Fish turns over Q7o for the win. The button had A10. I played this passively for 2 reasons. 1 was to try to stack the fish. No 2 was me and the new guy at the table were both deep and in the couple of hands he played he WILL NOT fold once he puts money into the pot so I was kindve protecting my stack, I’m not sure I had any fold equity If I chk raised flop and bet big on turn.

Comments

  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    My opinion is: don't post results in the original post.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    DanVanDyke said

    I know playing passive is losing poker for the most part but here's a situation where I played passive for reasons. Opinions?

    Hero: AhKh.

    I raise from cutoff to 20 (2-5 game) with AhKh. Get 4 callers. Flop comes 10c 5h 8h. (Pot 87). Normally I bet this but for some reason I chked. Button bets 40 and a guy who is a pure fish who will stack off if he hits his flush calls. Folded to me. I just call.I know this is normally a raise but my thought was if I heart came I KNOW I was going to stack the fish. I put him on hearts. I therefore played this hand passively, not too sure that was the way to go though. Turn was a 6d. CHk Chk and button bets $50. I figure he has a 10. Me and the fish call. River was a Qd-brick for me. CHk chk chk. The Fish turns over Q7o for the win. The button had A10. I played this passively for 2 reasons. 1 was to try to stack the fish. No 2 was me and the new guy at the table were both deep and in the couple of hands he played he WILL NOT fold once he puts money into the pot so I was kindve protecting my stack, I’m not sure I had any fold equity If I chk raised flop and bet big on turn.
    This is really hard to read and to follow. Try a few paragraphs, or organization etc... I'm not trying to be a total ass, but I struggled to follow this.

    I can't comment on much without knowing the stack sizes. Although it turns out the fish did not have a flush draw, it is hard to play for stacks calling all the time because a turn check raise looks too strong. Obviously the best that the fish can have is the Q high, so that has to cause some slow down IMHO.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    And Its hard to follow MY HAND DESCRIPTION? RU From another country or something? :) Stack sizes are irrelvant - I stated everyone was deep - that means more than 200bb. I have no idea what youre saying.
    Zach Z-H said
    DanVanDyke said

    I know playing passive is losing poker for the most part but here's a situation where I played passive for reasons. Opinions?

    Hero: AhKh.

    I raise from cutoff to 20 (2-5 game) with AhKh. Get 4 callers. Flop comes 10c 5h 8h. (Pot 87). Normally I bet this but for some reason I chked. Button bets 40 and a guy who is a pure fish who will stack off if he hits his flush calls. Folded to me. I just call.I know this is normally a raise but my thought was if I heart came I KNOW I was going to stack the fish. I put him on hearts. I therefore played this hand passively, not too sure that was the way to go though. Turn was a 6d. CHk Chk and button bets $50. I figure he has a 10. Me and the fish call. River was a Qd-brick for me. CHk chk chk. The Fish turns over Q7o for the win. The button had A10. I played this passively for 2 reasons. 1 was to try to stack the fish. No 2 was me and the new guy at the table were both deep and in the couple of hands he played he WILL NOT fold once he puts money into the pot so I was kindve protecting my stack, I’m not sure I had any fold equity If I chk raised flop and bet big on turn.
    This is really hard to read and to follow. Try a few paragraphs, or organization etc... I'm not trying to be a total ass, but I struggled to follow this.

    I can't comment on much without knowing the stack sizes. Although it turns out the fish did not have a flush draw, it is hard to play for stacks calling all the time because a turn check raise looks too strong. Obviously the best that the fish can have is the Q high, so that has to cause some slow down IMHO.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    The suggestion is to break out the action with hard returns so it is clear what the flop , turn, and river cards are, and what the action is on each street. One thing Ive learned is that people digest bullet lists much better than long paragraphs. If you are not accustomed to posting live hand histories, read one of Bart's threads (or one of mine, hopefully).

    Oh and typically hand histories should end at your decision point. Results can't help but influence the advice you get from us.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    I am saying that the lack of reasonable formatting compounded with the convoluted story line of the hand make reading your description and following along a challenge for me.

    Deep can mean different things for different people and V's stack size is rather critical for determining the best line(s) that you can take to get maximum value.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    Everyone be nice please.

    If you are 200bb's deep betting this flop is close to mandatory. Sizing will vary based on your opponent.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Why do posters insist on being mean when someone wants something out of us. I try to list the play like this

    backround paragraph

    Flop: xxx action

    Turn: x action

    River: x action

    I dont post results right away so I can get an honest opinion of what I would have done given the scenario..


    That said.. My basic opinion on your hand is that your mistake wasnt playing the hand passively. As the preflop raiser and with your equity in the pot you want to bet on each street. When you check call it looks so much like a draw (to something) that when a draw hits and you still bet it should in theory make it easier for someone to fold. With that much equity in the pot you should be betting for two reasons:

    1) You do not have a made hand.. Why give someone the chance to take the pot away from you. When you check you open the door for someone with say a pair of 9s to take the lead and now you have to hit to win the pot. If you bet you might get someone to fold the better hand but still get called by draws..

    2) You have so much equity you want to build a pot so when you do hit it you can get max value..

    WW
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    DanVanDyke said
    ... I played passive for reasons.
    DanVanDyke said
    I raise from cutoff to 20 (2-5 game) with AhKh. Get 4 callers. Flop comes 10c 5h 8h. (Pot 87). Normally I bet this but for some reason I chked.
    Bet the flop! what was your reason for checking? ESPECIALLY deep, you really must start to build the pot. You have so much equity with your specific hand! Also, you want to be able to win the hand unimproved.
    DanVanDyke said
    ...
    I put him on hearts.
    ...
    I figure he has a 10.
    ...
    I don't understand how/why you put both villains on one specific hand only. Based on previous actions, there's no way they can ONLY have these hands. Try to put them in a RANGE of hands. Something like: the fish can have Tx, flush draws, 98, 87, overcards, ...
  • Dan,

    I think Wendy put out a pretty good template for future strategy postings. It just makes it much easier for the reader to understand the given action if it is laid out in an organized manner.

    As far as the hand goes you have way to much equity vs two players not to bet the flop, especially on a non straightening board. You mention several times that you play the hand post flop as a check call because you want to stack the fish but it is not like the fish is going to fold anything--especially something that you can make big hand vs big hand over.

    Bart
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    Good points Wendy and Bart - I honestly dont think my sentence was that hard to follow. I was trying to explain why I played the hand the way i did. Normally of course I bet here on the flop. I guess more than anything I was trying to protect my stack and there may be something to that because If I chk raise and get it all in vs the guy w A10 (hes not folding top pr) thats not the best approach I think. Mainly because I have no fold equity, if I had some than of course I should chk raise and play it strong. Is it really smart to get it in vs a guy with top pr with no fold equity?
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Why do you think you have no fold equity against a T if you are 200BB+ deep? If you were very shallow I would understand and agree. In this single hand sample, you can see that the button checked the river once an over-card came -- not the same thing, but means he at least slows down with overcards and odds are pretty good at least one comes by the river. I don't think you have fold equity on the flop yes, but on the flop you don't know what he has and I think you need to cbet this.

    As for trying to flush over flush the fish, the way you describe him, he will call to try to draw to a flush regardless of whether you bet or check. If he indeed has a lower flush, c-betting allows you to build equity against him with a dominating hand. Also c-betting doesn't help anyone put you on a FD as people actually expect draws to play more passively.

    I agree, people have trouble reading paragraphs, esp since many here seem to read many posts not just yours -- I'm a big fan of HHs written in bullets/paragraphs/w organization. If it's hard to read, I'm likely to just skip over it.
  • I would bet flop and bet turn. If the fish is still in after the turn I'd just give up on the river unimproved. Playing a big draw passively like this in this situation is lightning money on fire.
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