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Too passive?

weatherman Posts: 65Member
edited August 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
So I am in a 1/2 game with ~100bb effective stacks. I am in the sb with KJo. The 4 ppl limp including the CO and button. I complete instead of reraising because every is playing no fold'em hold'em pre-flop and folding a ton post flop. Flop comes 33j rainbow. From my observations the past 4 hours I noticed people will fold top mid kicker if bet into on the flop but will call down if they bet first even with mid pair. I check hoping someone with JT, Qj, a pp like 6's or some random j2s hand bets. Checks to the button who bets $10 into $12. I call, the bb calls and everyone else folds. Turn is an offsuit 7 so no possible flush draw. I bet $25, the bb folds and the button insta-min raises. The min raise confused me as I had only seen people doing it for value so far. I ended up folding thinking he could have had a3 or k3s or maybe AJ. Everyone has been so passive I couldn't see being raised at all with JT, QJ, or any pair. Was that just too weak a fold, or am I always running into better here with a raise at the 1/2 level?

Comments

  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,804Subscriber
    Cause it's a limped pot you probably not good and if you are your not getting 2-3 streets of value from a lower J, well maybe but not worth it. Me personally I would lean towards raising but I could see just completing but multi way limped pots are hard to play. We need to get very lucky to win.

    One thing though. I'm by far not a great player but one thing I might be able to share with you is the idea of no foldem Holdem and how raising is pointless. You shouldn't think like that it's hurting your game. Don't play like everyone else because of short term results. Keep playing a TAG or even LAG game and keep the aggression up. You should looking for spots to steal pots and to value bet against these players.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,083SubscriberProfessional
    I am not going to fold the turn when he min raises.. this could easily be a worse J.. like QJ or JT etc.. then see what he does on river.. He might just bomb it and its an easy fold.. also to consider is how much left is the effective stack. If he is doing this and leaves himself very short then just fold...

    I find most players are NOT going to bet that flop with a 3 so you shouldnt immediately put in in villains range.. call turn and either bet small again or just check call a small bet or check fold a bigger bet.. I really only think you lose to AJ and a say a player who can bet say A3..

    remember you dont have to be always good when you call. You ONLY need to be good as often as the pot is laying you. If he bets half pot on river thats 1 out of 4.. just last night I made a call like that against a player who I thought could very well have a straight. I hit top pair on river with A kicker.. I called because even though I thought he could easily have a straight he only bet 100 into 200 .. I was getting 3:1 and only had to be good there 1 out of 4 times.. Would he bet a worse top pair? yes.. so I called and he had top pair worse kicker and I won.

    ww
  • weatherman Posts: 65Member
    Thanks guys. Thanks a lot Hammah, that is a fantastic point I tend to forget in the heat of the moment, that I only need to be good as often as the odds I am being laid.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    Just going to comment about preflop. Saying that you hate raising KJ out of the SB because the limpers are all playing "no foldem holdem" is a bad mentality.

    The proper thought process for whether you should raise KJo out of the SB over 4 limpers should go as follows:

    "The first MP limper is a very loose-passive station/nonbeliever recreational player. The HJ, CO, and BTN are semi-aggressive players who would have iso-raised the MP limper if they had anything reasonably good. Therefore, KJo is often the best hand here, and I will often get limp/called by dominated hands if I raise here. Therefore, I raise my KJo for value."

    Or:

    "The first UTG limper is a very tight-passive nitty recreational player who frequently limps up front with hands like AJ/KQ/99/etc. I have even seen the tight-passive nitty recreational UTG limper limp/reraise KK before after limping UTG. The other limpers are relatively tight too. Therefore, KJo is not likely to be the best hand here, and even if it is the best hand, it is very unlikely that I will get limp/called by dominated hands if I choose to raise here. Therefore, KJo is not good enough to raise for value, so I choose to complete the SB instead.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,386Subscriber
    weatherman said:
    So I am in a 1/2 game with ~100bb effective stacks. I am in the sb with KJo. The 4 ppl limp including the CO and button. I complete instead of reraising because every is playing no fold'em hold'em pre-flop and folding a ton post flop. Flop comes 33j rainbow. From my observations the past 4 hours I noticed people will fold top mid kicker if bet into on the flop but will call down if they bet first even with mid pair. I check hoping someone with JT, Qj, a pp like 6's or some random j2s hand bets. Checks to the button who bets $10 into $12. I call, the bb calls and everyone else folds. Turn is an offsuit 7 so no possible flush draw. I bet $25, the bb folds and the button insta-min raises. The min raise confused me as I had only seen people doing it for value so far. I ended up folding thinking he could have had a3 or k3s or maybe AJ. Everyone has been so passive I couldn't see being raised at all with JT, QJ, or any pair. Was that just too weak a fold, or am I always running into better here with a raise at the 1/2 level?
    Given the passive nature of the hand pre flop, I would have been likely to raise out of the blinds here, but I understand why you didn't. Having said that, if I didn't want to raise I am probably folding given I have the worst position post. KJo is not very strong and you're aren't going to like most flops. You flopped almost as decent as you could expect.

    As played I think leading this flop as opposed to hoping for someone to bet with JT QT is the better play. Check calling here just kind of leaves you in the dark. Leading the turn is okay, but once raised folding is fine. The river is check/call or check/fold.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    In this particular hand history, there probably isn't enough information to know whether KJo should have been raised out of the SB. Unfortunately, weatherman, I think you are way too concerned about getting called by the limpers with a "weak hand" like KJo because you hate playing OOP with "weak hands."

    If you correctly deduce that this is a good spot to value raise KJo from SB, you should be ecstatic to get limp/called instead of being in fear of getting limp/called.

    As far as playing KJo OOP versus 1-4 limp/callers, you should be in pretty good shape as long as you have solid postflop fundamentals (especially cbet fundamentals). Most likely, the limp/callers will be mediocre or even horrible poker players against whom you will have a significant skill advantage to make up for the fact that you are OOP to them.
  • weatherman Posts: 65Member
    Wow, thanks David Chan. You are absolutely right. I need to work on how I think about hands as opposed to well how I've BEEN thinking about hands, lol.
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