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Booking a flight on (A)merican (A)irlines.

SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Villain: Laggy and aggressive. Earlier he raised to $20 pre, called a bb squeeze to $110 and c/r folded to a re-raise on a board like 267r. He is a thinking player but somewhat spewy. Will call pre flop raises wide.

Effective stack sizes - $800

Preflop: Hero raises to $25 utg with AsAh, one caller, villain calls in bb.

Flop $75: 2c3h6c. Villain INSTANT leads for $50. Hero?

Comments

  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Are you considering anything besides a call?

    Raising and getting it in is usually bad with these stack sizes. Folding is just ridiculous against an aggressive opponent.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    Claire said

    Are you considering anything besides a call?

    Raising and getting it in is usually bad with these stack sizes. Folding is just ridiculous against an aggressive opponent.
    If we call flop is there anything we can do besides call or fold turn and call or fold river based on board run out and villain's sizing?

    Is there any merit to raise folding safe turns because we know villain is betting 100% of his range which includes more draws than made hands?
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    If he's aggro and a little spewy, he could just be bluffing with complete air because he doesn't think that board hits your UTG range. So against an opponent like that, I'll sometimes just call down three barrels no matter what. Of course, if it gets really ugly, meaning 4 to a straight and 4 to a flush by the river, I might consider folding.

    Why raise fold at any point and allow him to either fold his air or rebluff you if you're planning to fold? There might be a case for raising a blank turn with the intention of getting it in if you don't mind putting in that much money with one pair.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    Claire said

    Are you considering anything besides a call?

    Raising and getting it in is usually bad with these stack sizes. Folding is just ridiculous against an aggressive opponent.
    If you call the flop, don't you think you are somewhat committed to playing the hand as a call turn, call the river scenario?
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    Claire said

    If he's aggro and a little spewy, he could just be bluffing with complete air because he doesn't think that board hits your UTG range.
    fwiw, he is is never leading air into two people here. He definitely has something.
  • CrazyCBettor Posts: 46Member
    Say if we raise he gets it in with all combo draws, sets, straights.

    combo draws: 3c4c, 3c5c, 4c7c, 5c7c, 5c8c, Ac3c, Ac4c, Ac5c
    sets: 22,33,66
    straight: 45
    2 pair: 23s, 36s

    Say we raise to 150 and he ships, the pot will be 1000 and we will have to call 625 more. (1.6:1) We need like 38.4%. Against this range you are just 17.5%.
    Even if we remove 45o completely we are getting only 24.4%.

    Do you think he will bet 3-bet with weaker? Will he assume you will fold AA/KK in this spot?

    If he does not bet 3-bet with anything other than made hands and combo draws, I think we can easily 3-bet fold in this spot. And if he does not we know how to take it from there depending on various turn cards ;) .

    Let me know what you guys think.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    CrazyCBettor said

    Say if we raise he gets it in with all combo draws, sets, straights.

    combo draws: 3c4c, 3c5c, 4c7c, 5c7c, 5c8c, Ac3c, Ac4c, Ac5c
    sets: 22,33,66
    straight: 45
    2 pair: 23s, 36s

    Say we raise to 150 and he ships, the pot will be 1000 and we will have to call 625 more. (1.6:1) We need like 38.4%. Against this range you are just 17.5%.
    Even if we remove 45o completely we are getting only 24.4%.

    Do you think he will bet 3-bet with weaker? Will he assume you will fold AA/KK in this spot?

    If he does not bet 3-bet with anything other than made hands and combo draws, I think we can easily 3-bet fold in this spot. And if he does not we know how to take it from there depending on various turn cards ;) .

    Let me know what you guys think.
    Based on his timing I had a live read that sets were severely discounted. I still think calling is best on the flop.

    The main question is can we raise fold blank turns?
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    If he barely looked at the board, I agree sets, 2 pair, and flopped straights are unlikely to be in his hand (all of these hands would require some thought to extract maximum value). So although he could have these a small % of time, I think he's weighted toward overpairs to the board and FDs (you don't have the Ac so there are more of these). If he's really laggy then you can probably add some gutshot straight draws, and even one pair hands non FD hands like A6.

    I think the safest play here against a spewy LAG is to do exactly what Claire is saying (and this is learning from experience as most of my poorly played hands recently and hands I've posted here have involved raising/betting into a LAG and being put in a tough spot). Generally better to give him rope -- you are providing him more information by RRing and as a thinking player, he is likely to shut down on a RR (or 3 barrel you light also a bad outcome), but if you keep calling, he may continue to barrel your perceived weakness. It does mean you need to hang on and bias toward calling even if the board gets ugly.

    In this case though given the hand reading above, I think a turn raise as a value bet may be viable if you think he's likely to call off an overpair or FD on the turn, and he's unlikely to bluff raise you. If you think neither of these two things apply I would just hang on and call most turns and rivers and let him value own/semi-bluff for you.
  • coolfish7 Posts: 29SubscriberProfessional
    I'm in the call-down camp. Raising flop announces you have an overpair or air, and he might put in the 3b in either case. And a turn raise I think is an overplay if he's thinking at all, as it should be tough to get more money in the pot if he has worse. I think against spewy aggros you often just have to station off since both raise and fold suck for the reasons discussed above.
  • JamesSuh Posts: 320Subscriber
    CrazyCBettor said

    Say if we raise he gets it in with all combo draws, sets, straights.

    combo draws: 3c4c, 3c5c, 4c7c, 5c7c, 5c8c, Ac3c, Ac4c, Ac5c
    sets: 22,33,66
    straight: 45
    2 pair: 23s, 36s

    Say we raise to 150 and he ships, the pot will be 1000 and we will have to call 625 more. (1.6:1) We need like 38.4%. Against this range you are just 17.5%.
    Even if we remove 45o completely we are getting only 24.4%.

    Do you think he will bet 3-bet with weaker? Will he assume you will fold AA/KK in this spot?

    If he does not bet 3-bet with anything other than made hands and combo draws, I think we can easily 3-bet fold in this spot. And if he does not we know how to take it from there depending on various turn cards ;) .

    Let me know what you guys think.
    Imo, I think the range you assigned is a bit too narrow. What about hands like 65, 76, 77, 64, 88, 99, 34, 35...

    I kinda think there are a lot of hands in his range. We're obv crushing his range. I'd go with a call on the flop, then maybe a small value raise on the turn. If he has one of these combo draws or overpairs, he's never coming back over the top, if he comes over the top, you're beat, simple as that.
  • CrazyCBettor Posts: 46Member
    JamesSuh said
    CrazyCBettor said

    Say if we raise he gets it in with all combo draws, sets, straights.

    combo draws: 3c4c, 3c5c, 4c7c, 5c7c, 5c8c, Ac3c, Ac4c, Ac5c
    sets: 22,33,66
    straight: 45
    2 pair: 23s, 36s

    Say we raise to 150 and he ships, the pot will be 1000 and we will have to call 625 more. (1.6:1) We need like 38.4%. Against this range you are just 17.5%.
    Even if we remove 45o completely we are getting only 24.4%.

    Do you think he will bet 3-bet with weaker? Will he assume you will fold AA/KK in this spot?

    If he does not bet 3-bet with anything other than made hands and combo draws, I think we can easily 3-bet fold in this spot. And if he does not we know how to take it from there depending on various turn cards ;) .

    Let me know what you guys think.
    Imo, I think the range you assigned is a bit too narrow. What about hands like 65, 76, 77, 64, 88, 99, 34, 35...

    I kinda think there are a lot of hands in his range. We're obv crushing his range. I'd go with a call on the flop, then maybe a small value raise on the turn. If he has one of these combo draws or overpairs, he's never coming back over the top, if he comes over the top, you're beat, simple as that.
    I completely agree his range his very wide. I was just enumerating his bet 3-bet range if he were to 3-bet when we raise the flop. I don't understand if you guys are suggesting raising turn what is wrong in raising the flop?
  • CrazyCBettor Posts: 46Member
    If I don't raise the flop, I don't think I am raising the turn, I could make a small value raise on the river depending on his bet size.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    start with calling the flop. remember there's a third player left to act!
    If villain is a thinking player but spewy, I wouldn't raise the turn. The reason is that I have relatively many overpairs in my range, but not a lot of hands that can beat one pair. If he knows this, he can put an immense amount of pressure on me by bet-3betting the turn. On the other hand, I agree that he doesn't have sets and straights all that often. IF for any reason I did decide to raise on flop or turn, I would definitely not intent to fold to a reraise.

    All in all, I would call flop and turn, and MAYBE raise the river if the flush draw bricks, because he can put me on a flush draw and herocall.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Skinnybrown said

    Based on his timing I had a live read that sets were severely discounted. I still think calling is best on the flop.

    The main question is can we raise fold blank turns?
    Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Why would you ever raise-fold if you discount really strong hands?
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    Thank you for all the advice guys and girls. I ended up raise getting it in vs 34cc.

    I just kept thinking his range was a ton of draws and I was ahead of his range so I should raise without having a plan after that.

    Also, as many of you mentioned, stack preservation/protection big hand big pot small hand small pot is pretty crucial here.

    My problems in this hand were not planning ahead and opening my stack up with a vulnerable hand.
    whatsyourplay? said
    Skinnybrown said

    Based on his timing I had a live read that sets were severely discounted. I still think calling is best on the flop.

    The main question is can we raise fold blank turns?
    Aren't you contradicting yourself here? Why would you ever raise-fold if you discount really strong hands?
    If his range is largely draws and he never bet three bet gets his draws in on the turn then b/f could be good. Was just exploring alternative lines...
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