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Can I/should I find a fold here with KK pre flop?

RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 789Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2-5 game last night at Parx.

Effective stacks: $1000 (me, V1, V2).

Me in SB, V1 UTG+1, V2 UTG+2.

UTG+1 opens to $25. UTG+2 min raises to $50. Folds to me in SB with KK. I make it $200.

V1 folds.

V2 puts on a bit of act, asks how much I have, etc. etc., hems and haws a bit, finally min raises to $400

What's my play?

Reads: I don't have tremendous reads on V2. However, 2 things jump at me:

1. In the Parx 2-5 game, in my limited experience, the 4th raise is always AA or KK, and since I have KK, that's not good.
2. I just started reading Zack Elwoods's "Reading Poker Tells" (it's a MUST BUY btw - I should start a different thread on it) - and certain things V2 was doing seem to imply a weak is strong display.

I'll let the responses come in for say 12-24 hours, then I'll post results.

Thanks everyone as always!

Roger
«1

Comments

  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    I think you answered your own question. A min 3 bet plus min 5bet that commits 40% of stacks looks like he's not trying to get a fold, and this atypical play looks abnormally strong.

    I don't think he does this w qq or ak and if his range is only aa and kk, I think a disciplined fold is right.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    any other reads about him? Look, behaviour, VPIP, your image, etc?

    I have folded in similar spots before (correctly so), but I would really love to have additional reads to feel better about folding KK here. Your description really makes me want to old, though.
  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 789Subscriber
    Other reads:

    Had never played with him before (which is more about me as I've just recently stepped up to the 2-5 game).
    He was white male, probably mid 40's.
    Been playing with him for an hour. Saw nothing about his play that was out of line. Had him pegged as "not a donk, but not the super uber 20 something hoodie sunglasses internet kid". Labeled him solid recreational for the time being.

    He did seem naturally relaxed during the duration of this hand (focusing on one of topics in the Elwoods book).

    Roger
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    RogerHardy said

    Other reads:

    Had never played with him before (which is more about me as I've just recently stepped up to the 2-5 game).
    He was white male, probably mid 40's.
    Been playing with him for an hour. Saw nothing about his play that was out of line. Had him pegged as "not a donk, but not the super uber 20 something hoodie sunglasses internet kid". Labeled him solid recreational for the time being.

    He did seem naturally relaxed during the duration of this hand (focusing on one of topics in the Elwoods book).

    Roger
    Thanks! with this info, I'd estimate he has AA at least 80% of the time and an overplayed QQ or AK maybe like 20% max. If that's reasonable, it's a fold.
  • zmoney11 Posts: 28Member
    I have made this fold a few times in a 2/5 game and was right both times. One time in 1/2 i should have but i couldn't and learned a cheap but valuable lesson. I don't think the average rec player will 4 bet or 5 bet bluff. Let alone 4 or 5bet qq or ak that much. Granted some players will do this, but i don't think its enough, and you will figure out what players over rep their hands. But if you haven't seen a player 3 bet all night. His 4 betting range has to be that much tighter.

    side note:
    This happened to my friend at 1-2: A player opened ug2 to 15 my friend made it 45 with kk. sb makes it 145. both have 600 behind. My buddy grabs the 100 and was debating his play and the sb says: w/e it is i call. my friend folds kk face up and the sb goes i had 7s and mucks. I don't believe this at all. But people will say crazy stuff.

    The min raise is very interesting, and I am curious what people think about this. I've seen people do this with big hands and average pp 66-99 or hands like qj 10j. I know it is player dependent, but if you have no info on the guy what do people normally do with big hands like jj+ AK and maybe AQs. I feel you need to raise them for value and fold to a re raise. But at the same time you can call and value town them later.
  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 789Subscriber
    All

    Thanks your input as always folks! Based on the comments, I believe folding was the right play.

    As it played out...

    I wussed out and called the $200 to re-evaluate on the flop - I'm convinced this is the worst decision of the 3 raise/fold/call.

    And flopped Kxx.

    And pushed all in.

    And after V tanked for about a minute or 2, he called.

    Brick turn, brick river, I table trips K's, V's pissed, throws his cards down into the muck, and calls it a night.

    He never did show but it had to be AA.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    getting there is always a nice back-up plan.... Smile

    I don't think calling pre is the worst option, though. It's worse than folding, but it is most probably better than reraising. Which play you choose won't make a difference against AA, so you should focus on maximizing the value against the rest of his range. So, why not give him a chance to put more money in the pot with worse hands?

    For the same reason, I would check the flop once you hit your gin card. You'll stack his AA anyway, so give him the opportunity to put money in with other hands! Even if he has those only 5% of the time, it's still the better play.
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    NH Roger. I do agree with What's that I would have checked the flop after flopping the set (make your hand look like a PP lower than a K to induce a bet), but great you got the call.

    Curious -- what was your plan OOP if you didn't hit your set (e.g. all lower cards -- e.g. T 5 2 rainbow, etc.)?
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    If you are only getting 4b by AA then you arent 3b enough. If this is happening just start mashing 3b IP and crush everyone. I 3b a TON live because no one knows wtf to do against you and end up 4b shoving like j5s vs you. I would NEVER fold TT+ to a 4b shove in the games i play because of the way i play. Sure the bottom part of my stack off range might be a little bit -ev in the long run but when i can get people to put stacks in 10obb deep with a wide range of shit it makes up for this by a ton.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Not to be results oriented but you really never want to get it in with an underpair unless there is enough implied odds that make it profitable. Given stacks this isnt so.

    My suggestions:

    1) Next time you have KK and what seems like a tight player has min three bet.. Try min 4 betting and folding to a shove. The min three bettor will NEVER shove as a bluff and this is almost always AA.. you can fold having paid the min.. Your 4x 4bet I think can only be called by AA or KK..

    2) I absolutely hate your bet all in on the flop.. If the bozo was doing this QQ then you are going to get him to fold. Let him bet and you can either call or check raise all in.


    So if you had raised to 100 the bozo would he shove or min raise 5 bet again? Now its only 100 to call to win 1000.. that you can call and try to flop a set.. because you KNOW he has AA. You just HAVE to fold if the flop comes under a K...


    ww
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    wendy weissman said

    So if you had raised to 100 the bozo would he shove or min raise 5 bet again? Now its only 100 to call to win 1000.. that you can call and try to flop a set.. because you KNOW he has AA. You just HAVE to fold if the flop comes under a K...

    ww
    Wendy, I think you actually are results oriented here. Minraising him to 100 is not a good play with eff. stacks of 1k. You give him good odds to call, so every time he does not 4bet but flatcall (which is the majority of the time) you have to play a big pot from OOP with no idea about his range and a pretty defined range yourself. And every time you fold a low flop and he shows you somethink like 99-QQ or AK, you butchered the hand. It's much better to raise to 200 and fold to a reraise, knowing that he won't do this often enough with the hands I mentioned.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    What..

    I am assuming that you would think that villain will shove with any AA.. if he calls then you actually do know his range.. AK, QQ maybe JJ.. probably not any other pair..I think most players would fold smaller pairs then JJ..

    ww
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    wendy weissman said

    What..

    I am assuming that you would think that villain will shove with any AA.. if he calls then you actually do know his range.. AK, QQ maybe JJ.. probably not any other pair..I think most players would fold smaller pairs then JJ..

    ww
    If villain minraises to 50 and you make it 100 with 900 behind, do you really think he would fold hands like JJ, TT, AQs, and what else he decided to 3 bet with for whatever reason? I have seen people 3bet my tight UTG open from UTG+1 with AJs becaus they thought it is the nuts. Nobody will fold anything for 50 more if he has position and can win 1000.

    Of course his range is not 40% of hands, but the problem is that there are a lot of flops where you don't know how to proceed. Getting bluffed of the best hand would be a huge mistake, and loosing value against a worse hand also is pretty bad.

    I am not saying that reraising him is bad. I actually think it is the best play. I am just saying the sizing of 100 would be really bad.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Ok so maybe min raising to 100 isnt the best since its only 50 bucks more.. So make it 150.. I just think that you can 4 bet a little less than 4x..the three bet. I dont think that many players are going to just flat there with AA and you can define range of villain without having to commit as much of our stack to do it.

    ww
  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 789Subscriber
    Mike said

    If you are only getting 4b by AA then you arent 3b enough. If this is happening just start mashing 3b IP and crush everyone. I 3b a TON live because no one knows wtf to do against you and end up 4b shoving like j5s vs you. I would NEVER fold TT+ to a 4b shove in the games i play because of the way i play. Sure the bottom part of my stack off range might be a little bit -ev in the long run but when i can get people to put stacks in 10obb deep with a wide range of shit it makes up for this by a ton.
    Mike

    I'm very intrigued by this. I don't 3 bet nearly enough, nor does anyone in my game.

    So what's your 3 bet range, assuming say mid-late position, if you don't mind me asking?

    Roger
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    88+ broadway cards mostly. really depends on villian and history. basically you want to 3b a lot and force people to be uncomfortable. They will adjust 1 of 2 ways.

    1) spazz out with 4b bluffs. This is good as we can just stack off with our entire 3b range.

    2) Stop opening. This is also good. Now just run the table over and win. If they adjust this way obv dont 3b the bottom of your range vs them anymore since their opening range will be basically their stack off range.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Mike said

    88+ broadway cards mostly. really depends on villian and history. basically you want to 3b a lot and force people to be uncomfortable. They will adjust 1 of 2 ways.

    1) spazz out with 4b bluffs. This is good as we can just stack off with our entire 3b range.

    2) Stop opening. This is also good. Now just run the table over and win. If they adjust this way obv dont 3b the bottom of your range vs them anymore since their opening range will be basically their stack off range.
    Also, some people adjust by
    3) calling down very light pre and especially post if they hit any piece. You can valuebet them to death then.
  • JerseyJay Posts: 181Subscriber
    ive never folded KK pre, but I have heard urban myths of this. I was prepared to just add to this thread "never fold KK pre" and move on, but actually I may have found a fold there given the acting job and min raise. Always the nuts. So bad. As played, way to crack em!
  • CruelUltimatum Posts: 160Subscriber
    Jersey Jay said

    ive never folded KK pre, but I have heard urban myths of this. I was prepared to just add to this thread "never fold KK pre" and move on, but actually I may have found a fold there given the acting job and min raise. Always the nuts. So bad. As played, way to crack em!
    I've been told never to fold KK preflop, but when it's Tighty McTightTight 4bet shoving, well - he's either got AA or KK, and there's only one combination of KK he could have. Guys like that don't do that with QQ or AK.

    I haven't done it yet, but I've called shoves with KK thinking, "I think this is a bad idea, but I'm never supposed to fold this hand!" I lose to AA, then I read a bunch of forum posts about how you shouldn't ever fold KK preflop and I pet my arms to make myself feel better, but in reality that situation has come up enough (~20 times) where I think that it's AA or KK, then unless I'm getting a little better than 3-1 (KK has 22.6% equity against a range of KK/AA), I'm probably folding next time.
  • Gordon806 Posts: 59Member
    Saying I would never fold KK pre in live is so LOL...I'm guessing these are the same people when they run into AA, say its just a cooler. Any given situation can dictate a fold. That's why sometimes 4th pair is the nuts and a set might be worthless....When he min 5-bets you after min 3-betting its obvious AA. Not sure what your thinking by calling because your putting 40% in and your not going to be able to get away on 90% of the flops.
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