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need help with bottom trips on flop with action

RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 789Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2-5 Parx today.

2nd hand at the table so no reads.

UTG (live) straddle to 10.

I'm UTG+1, see TT, call the 10.

It goes 8 ways for $10.

Flop: Ac Qd Tc.

3 checks to me, I make it $75.

V1 to my immediate right calls the $75. We're both effective 1K stacks.

Couple of folds, V2 raises all in ~190 on top of the 75 to me.

So, its ~300 in the pot, with 190 for me to call, with V1 still having action behind me and we're both 1K deep (well, about 900 deep right now).

My play?

No reads I can count on; my gut tells me V2 has a draw and not KJ but its just my gut, and I have no read on V1.

Roger

Comments

  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 789Subscriber
    PS if I didn't make it clear when it got to me, everyone's folded except me and the 2 V's, and I'm first to act the rest of the way.
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    I would raise to about $375-400 total, leaving V1 $300-$325 to call. If he shoves, he always has KJ here and I would fold.

    I am never folding to V2 (with short stack, you can't worry about KJ; 2 pair, draws etc. are well within his range here).
    V1 played his hand as if he had a draw, or a one-pair type hand he doesn't want to play aggressively on the wet board. I think you need to get value here. If he ships, he's pretty much polarized to KJ, which is more likely given the flop went 8-handed.

    PF, I would have raised. I like to double the straddle (at least in $5/10... maybe you need to 2.5x it in $2/5) -- I've found that everyone not already in the hand treats this like a 4x raise and reacts normally, and only the straddle really calls this lighter, which is fine since his range would be wide.
  • JamesSuh Posts: 320Subscriber
    shmed said

    I would raise to about $375-400 total, leaving V1 $300-$325 to call. If he shoves, he always has KJ here and I would fold.

    If you commit 40% of your stack and get shoved on, wouldn't you be committed to calling off the rest?
  • I think you definitely should reraise the short stack. There is not sizing that you can make it to fold to a ship. You would think that on a draw heavy board KJ would raise the flop, so I dont expect him to show up here with the nuts all that often.

    Bart
  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 789Subscriber
    Bart said

    I think you definitely should reraise the short stack. There is not sizing that you can make it to fold to a ship. You would think that on a draw heavy board KJ would raise the flop, so I dont expect him to show up here with the nuts all that often.

    Bart
    Bart and company -

    What I ended up doing was going all in for the rest of my stack. I was right about V2 being on a draw. V1 however had QQ and pretty much snapped call; which is why I was trying to figure out if there was a way if I could have saved say 400-500 of my stack had I raised it to 400 instead of all in, and then folded if V1 went all in.

    A 2nd question for Bart, which maybe we can follow up a in a separate thread, is raising with hands like KJo. I never do because I never know how to play them after the flop. I know Bart from all your podcasts you have a much wider raising range than I do (but then again I'm a super nit). So I wouldn't mind a thread or a few minutes on a podcast about what's your range to raise with, and re-raise with.

    Love the podcast as always, they're probably responsible for at least 1/2 my winnings since I subscribed, mostly in regards to value betting and playing flopped nut flushes fast (man that gets payed off nicely a lot of the time).

    Roger
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Mathematically yes, calling $600 to win ~$1700 (quick math so let me know if this is off) it's hard to justify a fold. However, if a flop goes 8-ways and the action goes bet, call, raise, shove, re-shove, I think that TT is rarely good here. I don't expect this to happen too often, but I just don't see him shoving with less on the flop.

    Awkward spot to bet-fold (and easier said then done), but I think this is a live-poker type situation where a limp-RRAI here would really narrow his hand to the nuts or near-nuts. I also think this applies pretty much just to $2/5 where a $600 reraise is a huge bet and very meaningful. This probably doesn't work at $5/10.

    Interesting what he actually had -- wonder if he would have raised you if you bet $400 or just called behind trying to get to showdown cheaper. Nevertheless I think he's never folding here, tough spot.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    raise preflop!
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Gotta love the QQ trapping pre, or is he set mining?? What the f is going on with this table? Raise pre and go from there.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    RogerHardy said
    Bart said

    I think you definitely should reraise the short stack. There is not sizing that you can make it to fold to a ship. You would think that on a draw heavy board KJ would raise the flop, so I dont expect him to show up here with the nuts all that often.

    Bart
    Bart and company -

    What I ended up doing was going all in for the rest of my stack. I was right about V2 being on a draw. V1 however had QQ and pretty much snapped call; which is why I was trying to figure out if there was a way if I could have saved say 400-500 of my stack had I raised it to 400 instead of all in, and then folded if V1 went all in.

    A 2nd question for Bart, which maybe we can follow up a in a separate thread, is raising with hands like KJo. I never do because I never know how to play them after the flop. I know Bart from all your podcasts you have a much wider raising range than I do (but then again I'm a super nit). So I wouldn't mind a thread or a few minutes on a podcast about what's your range to raise with, and re-raise with.

    Love the podcast as always, they're probably responsible for at least 1/2 my winnings since I subscribed, mostly in regards to value betting and playing flopped nut flushes fast (man that gets payed off nicely a lot of the time).

    Roger
    I don't like the over-ship here, as I think you are losing value to so many hands that will call the raise. Shoving 900 into a pot of 300 will ensure that literally everything except AA, QQ, and KJ will fold. Given action both pre-flop and on the flop, I would never expect villain to show up with QQ or AA like, ever, and KJ is the current nuts so will not fold. Villian can have so many hands that will call a raise to 400 here that aren't the nuts.

    To me this is a pretty clear raise/call-off or raise/shove turn. I'm not good enough to fold a set on a board like this at 1/2 or 2/5 no matter what the action. Even in the worse case scenario when villian has KcJc, we still have 30% equity, so calling off 600 to win ~1800 is still +EV.

    edit: sorry be a nit here, but you have bottom set, not bottom trips. I actually think you would be able to find a fold if the board was Ac10c10d and you held K10 or Q10 given certain action
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Yeah, me too. Trips are for stud, or flopping two on the board in flop games.
    #pokerpolice
  • I probably raise pre.

    As people said uf you raise back this flop and get shoved on and he shows you Kong jack face up you're still calling for 1k bc you have monster equity (probably >30%). Qq/as really shouldn't be out there.

    Just a cooler. If you raised pre you still prob get stacked.
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