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Let laggy value own himself?

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I have been at the table for at least an hour when a young kid comes and sits down.. He is raising way too many hands but so far hasnt shown complete crap.. I suspect he is a loose aggressive player and has built his stack to 400. I have a very good image and am three to his left..

He raises 13 his standard raise from mp and I see KJ from the sb.. I didnt think I could get worse to call a three bet and my plan if I hit was to let him value own as he seems to bet boards that he cant possible get called by worse. He is also a calling station on the river when the obv draw misses.. If I miss I will just fold as I am oop..

So first off what do you think of my call given his wide range?

So flop comes K 6 3 two dias.. He bets 20, I call... I am oop and want to keep the pot size reasonable while I determine what his range is. He is so wide open that its really hard to put him on anything.. I have tp ok kicker so I am happy to see what happens on the turn..

Turn.. 5 c I check and he bets 45 this time.. pretty much my same mo as on the flop.. I am probably way ahead .. I call..

River.. 2h so now this brings a backdoor straight but the flush misses.. I dont want this to get checked down so I bet 55.. I am pretty confident he will call considering the flush missed and I have seen him call rivers on wet flops twice already.. He calls pretty quickly and I am good.. If he had raised I was going to fold..

so what do you think of my river bet too? I dont know what he had but my main question to everyone is my preflop play and my river bet size.

thanks

WW

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    forgot to mention that laggy has me covered and I had about 250 at the start of the hand.. It was heads up as well..
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Nicely played. I think it's all fine. I think you probably could have bet more on the river -- especially if you intended to fold to a raise. That sizing might induce a bluff-raise. If he had K lower kicker or some kind of middle PP between K and 6, he's probably calling something like a $90 bet. But it all comes down to what you think he has... he might have been as week as A high if he was bluff catching.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    Nice play. I agree with shmed that you probably could have bet bigger on the river. I like to absolutely bomb boards like this with top pair to make it seem like I missed the flush and I'm trying to bluff villian off of a real hand. But otherwise no complaints
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Thanks guys..

    My only issue with betting more on the river is my spr.. I dont think I can fold if I bet say 75 or more.. I would only have around 100 left.. Can I fold given his wide range?

    Ww
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    wendy weissman said

    He is also a calling station on the river when the obv draw misses.. If I miss I will just fold as I am oop..

    If you are sure about this read, you can consider shoving the river. It's exactly one pot size bet, and looks even more bluffy than your small bet.

    Flatcalling this hand pre OOP is fine if his range is wide and you have an idea how he plays postflop (which you apparently have).
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    wendy weissman said

    Thanks guys..

    My only issue with betting more on the river is my spr.. I dont think I can fold if I bet say 75 or more.. I would only have around 100 left.. Can I fold given his wide range?

    Ww
    I think that, if you think you have the best of it most of the time, whats?'s play is definitely a solid option and something that I considered in my reply. You are right in that you can't fold given stack sizes when you bet larger, but I don't think you are folding given your assessment of his range anyway. Let's say he shoved over your $55 lead. You would need to call $117 for a pot of $383. You need to be good less than 25% of the time here and you've played the whole hand like a flush draw. I probably call off pretty quickly.

    Something that I have been trying to work on recently is trying to figure out the probability of a call in certain spots (i.e. a $100 bet getting called 50% of the time is much better than a $172 bet getting called 10% of the time), so I guess it would be read dependent in the sense of, would he call a huge (for 1/2) bet on the river. I know you said he turns into a calling station when draws miss, but it would be a $172 bet into a $156 pot.
  • JerseyJay Posts: 181Subscriber
    i like a $75 bet fold. You don't want to level yourself into a betcall because you bet too small and think you induced. $75 is around half pot so can avoid that and can bet fold I think. otherwise, I love how you played this hand.
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    +1 wack. I think you have two somewhat mutually exclusive, competing priorities - maximizing value or properly sizing for bet/fold. Given your reads on both his range and his play, I would maximize value -- if it means you can't bet fold because you are too short-stacked I think that's fine. You seem to have very strong reads on him so I think you go with your conviction and assume that it's remote that he raises here with something better than top pair J kicker.
  • What do we expect a laggy villain to call a huge river bet with? If his range is super wide is he really calling rivet with a6 or 88?

    If he's really a maniac I might try letting him bluff but if I'm sinking I'm betting more like 60-70
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    PokerIsFrustrating said

    What do we expect a laggy villain to call a huge river bet with? If his range is super wide is he really calling rivet with a6 or 88?

    If he's really a maniac I might try letting him bluff but if I'm sinking I'm betting more like 60-70
    Wendy said that villain is call-happy if draws brick out, so he can call you with everything from QQ-77, 6x, weaker Kx hands, and what not.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I hadnt seen villain raise the river when someone bet into him. I agree I probably should have bet around 75 but I am really trying to walk the tightrope in my smaller game since the stacks get so short so quickly..

    If he had raised then I would have to fold because this wouldnt have been a bluff imho and I dont think my K would beat his range ..

    thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated..
  • Call happy =/= stack off happy. If we ship here we give call happy opponent an excuse to fold some of his weaker holdings, and if course better never folds
  • edog Posts: 43Member
    I think a check/call; check/call; bet/fold river is an OK line against weaker villains. I don't like it against stronger opponents because I feel like my hand in face up, i.e. medium strength. I think the river bet looks like a value bet most of the time and won't get called by worse. With a busted draw we would have had to have made -EV calls on the flop and turn. Is the King the non-diamond?

    What is the villain betting the turn with? Would he check back a hand with showdown value, but bet air or draws?

    Is there any merit to check raise flop 3x ($60), lead turn half pot ($70), ck/fold or ck/call river based on a read? What if our hand was 77-JJ.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edog said

    I think a check/call; check/call; bet/fold river is an OK line against weaker villains. I don't like it against stronger opponents because I feel like my hand in face up, i.e. medium strength. I think the river bet looks like a value bet most of the time and won't get called by worse. With a busted draw we would have had to have made -EV calls on the flop and turn. Is the King the non-diamond?

    What is the villain betting the turn with? Would he check back a hand with showdown value, but bet air or draws?

    Is there any merit to check raise flop 3x ($60), lead turn half pot ($70), ck/fold or ck/call river based on a read? What if our hand was 77-JJ.

    This guy would just keep barreling.. thats why I decided to take the value own line. I had seen him just keep betting each street AND call river when the front door draw missed.. Nice donkey combo of bluffer calling station.. Given this observation he was not playing like a normal player in my game and I thought he

    1) might check the river and therefore I needed to bet to make sure I got value since I knew he had a high liklihood of calling

    2) My hand should be the best considering his past history..

    3) He wasnt raising any river bet so I didnt think I would get bluff raised..

    so all of this together a bet seemed like the right play.. I did get called by worse though I am not sure what he had since I had to show first.. I think calling when you know someone has a high bluff barrel % is probably the right line to take..

    ww
  • edog Posts: 43Member
    Gotta love it when people play in predictable patterns. Smile
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