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Crush Live O8 No.3: Intro to PLO8

BartBart Posts: 5,887AdministratorLeadPro
edited March 2015 in Crush Live O8 Videos
This week Bart gives a broad introduction into PLO8 by reviewing some hands played at 6 Max .25c-50c and $1-$2 online. He discusses the difference between Big O, long handed PLO8 and short handed PLO8 and gives his approach to the game.

Episode posts at 2PM.

http://www.crushlivepoker.com/videos/introduction-to-plo8

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Comments

  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    edited October 2014
    So a few observations, just IMO...

    First of all, your competition in these videos is pretty terrible. Normally I'd say online skill level is normally 1/10th of the equivalent stakes online, but I've found that's less the case in the more esoteric games like PLO8, Courchevel, etc. It just doesn't matter that much, they are generally just bad.

    Hand #1 I don't really have a problem with your check, but 6-handed, I'm usually betting with second nut made low, an overpair, and a nut flush draw. Yes the texture of the flop is such that you could get jammed on by a 58xx, 35xx, or worse A35xx but I think you're also missing value from dominated flush draws, pairs + OESD, A54x, etc. Anyway I don't think it's a mistake to check back flop at all, I'm just betting there 3-ways a lot.

    Also, as Galfond would say, "You have the nut flush draw. It can never be that bad."

    The biggest problem with this hand, which is something that anyone who plays PLO or PLO8 will just have to get used to is that playing hands OOP just really, really sucks. It's very hard to extract max value, or play effectively.

    100% ridiculous that you scooped this hand.

    Hand #6 This hand is played pretty standard, the only reason I'm commenting is I see people playing spots like this so terribly, doing things like potting to protect their top two. It's a recipe for disaster playing this hand fast OOP. Yes, I'm talking to you, NLHE players or PLO players... check back this flop.

    Regarding your river bet, I realize you're probably never scooped here, but I also don't think you're ever getting called by hands that you scoop. Doesn't make the bet bad, but just don't think you're ever getting called and scooping. But who knows, the guy in hand #1 called lol

    Hand #7 Regarding bet sizing here, I pretty much always bet 3/4 pot whenever I'm betting or raising, mostly because unlike a lot of players, I do have enough bluffs that I want them to be less expensive. The only time I'm potting it is when I'm certain my opponent is just never, ever folding a one-way hand, and I'm scooping them. Even then I'm rarely potting it except vs. certain players that I know are unobservant.

    This guy's repot on the river... I think it's not that great, because you bet bet bet on a board where you almost always have a made low. Regarding your line, if there was a front-door flush, and the guy I'm playing against is a reg of some sort, some part of the time I'm going to c/r jam the river. Because the way he played the hand, he almost never has a two-way hand, and a decent reg should be able to dump the hand with that action at least some part of the time.

    It's a pretty key concept in PLO8, if you have a lock low and it's short-handed, and there's an obvious draw on the flop, when faced with aggression, just call. When the board pairs, or the flush comes, or the straight comes, or whatever, and he checks, or bets small, that's when your hand looked very much like a draw, and you just jam and put them in horrible, horrible positions.

    Obviously you will get called and have to show it down sometimes, but that's fine. When you take the same action with scooping hands, they call you with one-way hands and you rape them over and over again.

    Hand #8 Villain has far, far more missed low draws/flush draws/straight draws in his range than anything else. He rarely has a hand you're losing to, the right play is to check the river, make it look like you have a bricked draw as well, and give him a shot to bluff at it. I think you've never getting called by worse here, I mean MAYBE he's really bad and calls with QT56 or whatever, but he's bluff catching. So against many people, I like just checking and letting them stab at it.

    The only argument I'd make for betting here is if you plan to barrel 3 streets on boards like this with combo low+flush draws, including the river when you brick out. If this is part of your game (and it probably should be, depending on the game/players), then I like a 3rd bet here, because it protects your 3-barreling range (yeah, lol) and also you're more likely to get called by worse because you have been barreling so much that people are fed up with it.

    Hand #9 It makes me sad that you have to fold the nut blocker here. But this is a huge mistake that PLO players make... you just a NOT going to get your bluffs through on boards where there is a made low with enough of a frequency for it to be profitable.

    A huge leak many people have is being unable to fold made nut lows with no high potential. Unless your table has given you reason to call in spots like this (and I've been at tables where they have), it's definitely a fold. Also being OOP makes it an even easier fold.

    We play the game to scoop, not to hope not to get quartered.

    Hand #10 Only thing notable about this hand is I see sooooo many NLHE and PLO players seeing A 7 8 9 and thinking it's a monster. It's not. It's complete garbage, for the reasons Bart mentioned. Fold preflop.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,887AdministratorLeadPro
    edited October 2014
    Hmm.. in Hand #1 are you leading to lead-fold? You can't be happy if you get raised here and I think it would be a bit spewey to continue on when you are most likely toast for one half and only drawing at the other. Maybe you think this is proper because we are playing 4 handed? I am sure that you agree that in a long handed Big O game the right play multi way very well might be to check fold. And Galfond made that comment about PLO not PLO8 when a low is already out there :p

    Bart
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    edited October 2014
    Yeah 100% I play it more cautiously in Big O, and sometimes even fold if it's full ring, and depending on action. But you're playing 4-handed, and are 3-ways to the flop. It's really, really hard for anyone to have you just crushed here.

    A decent number of people will not raise with a straight here anyway, because they know that half the pot is gone, and someone could be freerolling them with a hand like yours.

    I realize Galfond made the comment regarding PLO, but given that there's a made low on board, and we're 3-ways to the flop in a 4-handed game... it's just so so unlikely that you're ever getting scooped, and you're missing value. And your equity isn't absolutely terrible against much of anything. I think if this scenario is repeated 100x, you'll be losing money overall by not betting flop.

    But like anything it depends on your table. I don't think a check back here is bad; just a lot of the time I'm betting. I expect only to get jammed on very, very rarely by super nutty hands like A258 or A235 with clubs or such. And I think you're going to get called by many, many other hands, some of which you have crushed.

    Against A 2 3 5 you have 25% equity... and that's literally the absolute tippy-top of his range. Against the range of hands that call you, I think you're doing very well 3-ways to the flop in a 4-handed game.

    I also don't really mind playing a little aggressive when my equity is still pretty good, if it means that later on in the session people are going to be calling me off light (relatively speaking) when the real money goes in.

    You just need to get value on the flop and turn so much in PLO and PLO8, because people are just not paying off on the river like they do in NLHE. There are no more draws to extract value from.

    The fact that you're OOP makes a check slightly better, but I'm still betting most of the times here. Feel free to exploit. :tu:
  • JT00 Posts: 193Subscriber
    Hand #9 If in this spot, you didn't flop the pair of 3's eg Flop: 456. With the possibility of counterfeiting A2 and having the 3 as counterfeit protection if a A or 2 hits, can you continue with the nut low in that spot?

    Stated more simply: Can you continue with the nut low w/ back up if you have no high potential?
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Bart,

    In hand #7, with As2s35, board of A87, I'm pushing hard heads up short handed. Since you potted pre-flop, you definitely have AA in your range, as well as nut low (which of course you actually have), and you can put TONS of pressure on high hands weaker than top set. I would pot this the entire way and possibly get someone off a weak high-only hand, like 87. On the river, I love the 9, because if he doesn't have 56 or JT and you pot again, now WTF is he gonna do with 87, A7, or even 77? He may very well fold those hands.

    In addition, if he's calling with a bare nut low, he may fold that also by the river if you put max pressure on villain, thinking he may be getting quartered.

    I've seen people in my player pool make both kinds of folds often.

    Then again, some people (Wendy) think I'm a big donk, so whatever... :wink:
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Hand #8 with the A335 set of 3s on a Q43cc board... I think the river is close and player dependent between smallish curiosity/inducing bet vs. check/call off. In my player pool with aggro donks who bet whenever checked to, I might check/call off here. On Bovada with no history, I think I like your line better.
  • TomBayes Posts: 81Subscriber
    Bart,

    This is more a general comment and not about any of the specific hands on the PLO8 video.

    I appreciate both the limit and PLO8 videos, although neither game is spread at my regular room. I get to play limit 08 occasionally in Tunica or Vegas, but my live PLO8 experience is limited to a couple of tournaments.

    One thing I'd like you to talk about in future videos, and I realize this will be hard since you don't have live footage of O8 hands, is more about the dynamics of "dealing" with the whole Live O8 experience. I learned how to play the game online and had played online for a few years before ever playing the game live.

    As you know, the live O8 game tends to be a magnet for angry old douchebags and there is both a lot of flawed "standard wisdom" constantly talked about and the occasional "angle-shooting". Granted, I've not played live limit O8 bigger than $10/$20 and you play higher, but I'd like to hear you discuss how to both tune out and/or deflect the idiocy and anger from the regulars and how to avoid being angleshot.

  • TomBayes Posts: 81Subscriber
    edited November 2014
    Here's a story about live O8 angleshooting from my blog from a Vegas trip about 3 years ago. Suprise, suprise, the angleshot took place on a WEEKDAY AFTERNOON at THE ORLEANS.

    First, I have to wait like a freaking hour for a seat in a busy room with lists more than long enough to start new games. After briefly slumming in a 2/4 holdem game, I finally get a seat at a 4/8 omaha/8 game with a half-kill. Naturally, the game is full of a bunch of miserable old douchebags and I feel my soul being slowly but surely sucked out of me. Then BLATANT ANGLESHOT happens.

    This hand has the kill, so we are playing 6/12. I'm in the #3 seat and the important villains are in the #7 and #10 seats. The #7 seat is the most miserable of the several miserable old douchebags at my table. The #10 seat is a French tourist. He wanted 4/8 holdem, got seated at this table by mistake, and decided to stay. I'm not 100% sure he understands it's a split pot game or that you use exactly 2 cards from your hand and 3 cards from the board, but that hasn't stopped him from going on a total heater, much to the disgust of the #7 seat and his many old miserable douchebag friends. #10 is in the BB. I have A2xx. Anyways, we get to the river with just me, #7 and #10 left. The river makes my low. #10 bets, I call the $12, and #7 sets 12 chips across the betting line, which in reasonable card rooms means "CALL". #10 shows his hand-he has a straight. I then show my hand-nut low. #7 seat then jumps up and starts screaming that he never acted. WTF-you set twelve chips forward, you miserable old douchebag. He screams for the floor and all of his old miserable douchebag friends agree with him. The floor arrives and #7 and his old miserable douchebag friends are blathering about how he never acted and how #10 and I both chose to magically expose our hands without letting him act. I point out he has set 12 chips across the line. The floor informs the table that the betting line is not binding and that #7 has not acted yet. He naturally mucks and the miserable old douchebag saves his miserable fucking twelve dollars. Somehow I'm pretty sure #7 would have called if he could have beat either of us. UGH.

    The moral of the story: Verify everything and assume nothing in such a locals-infested environment. Yes, it wasn't much money, this time.

    Sorry to derail the thread a bit away from PLO8. To get somewhat back on topic, I noticed when grinding some of the $200-$300 tourneys last summer in Vegas, that the PLO8 players are way happier and more pleasant than the limit O8 players. A bunch of the guys I played PLO8 with were guys that regularly play PLO and like to gamb00l and take beats and variance reasonably well, while most limit O8 guys are as bitter as hell and bitch & moan every damn time they lose a hand that they were ahead on at one point.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,887AdministratorLeadPro
    JT00 said:
    Hand #9 If in this spot, you didn't flop the pair of 3's eg Flop: 456. With the possibility of counterfeiting A2 and having the 3 as counterfeit protection if a A or 2 hits, can you continue with the nut low in that spot?

    Stated more simply: Can you continue with the nut low w/ back up if you have no high potential?
    In general if your backup potential doesn't give you a possibility of a high hand then no I would avoid these spots in a 5 card game.

    Bart
  • Poobah Posts: 2Subscriber
    edited November 2014
    Here's a PLO8 hand I played a couple years back at the WSOP.

    5-5 PLO8
    Hero Button with Ax Ax 2s 5s
    Villain limps UTG
    folds to Hero who raises to $25, Villain calls.

    Flop: Qs 7s 6x
    Check, Bet $50, Call.

    Turn: Jx
    Check, Bet $150, Villain now raises full pot ($610 to go, $460 to call), about $1000 remains to be bet after the raise.

    Analysis: Villain was reasonably tight and passive up to this point. He announced pot as he raised on the turn.
    I hated my turn bet as soon as it left my hand - checking behind is almost certainly the right play.

    Anyway, as I agonized over the situation, and tried to come to terms with the fact that folding was probably the best option, Villain began talking.

    "Throw it away," he said, "your draw is no good."
    "Which one?" I asked
    "All of them," he said, showing me the As, "I have aces. Only question is whether you have a set. If you have a set, you have to call, but if you have a draw it's no good."

    At that moment I decided I knew his exact 4 cards.

    He had to have As Qx Qx 3x.

    The talk about having a set meant he had to have top set. He was too confident otherwise, and there's no way he would limp from up front without a two way hand, but there's no way he would be trying to discourage me from calling with a draw if he had A2, and there was no way he would show me the As if he actually had the nut flush draw.

    This last point made me confident that my 5-high flush draw had to be good, and further that I did not have to pay him off if the Js or 6s or 2x came.

    So I called.

    River: 4s

    He checked, I bet all-in, he called, and went on life tilt, unable to believe that I was so bad that I called with a five-high flush draw. Ironically for him I wouldn't have if he had kept his mouth shut and not showed me the As.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    I have come to a more recent decision that all things being equal I am less inclined to threebet say AK2x if x isnt a wheel card vs A34J... having that extra wheel card I think just allows me to drive the hand post flop more often.

    Is this something you all are seeing as well?

    Also Bart I heard the rumors of making the plo8 wsop event(s) BigO events.. who makes these decisions and is there any input from the players? If so I want to know where I can vote and keep stuffing the ballot.. I would play the 1500 BigO event for sure and would plan my wsop vacation around it..

    ww
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,838Subscriber
    one thing i came across this weekend playing online is how I play high hands.

    Before say a flop or turn contained 2 low cards and someone bet into me I would auto raise with a nut high or near nut high. My thinking was to avoid chops, get people to call with low draws and charge them, and gain value from high hands.

    But I've been thinking if the guy leading into me doesn't lead with low draws that often he probably has a high hand. If i just call my hand looks like a low draw. Now when river comes I can easily pot regardless of whether low came or not. I could rep busted low draw pretty easily and if low does come I could gain value from the high hand thinking he was good cause of my turn play.

    obv not a set in stone line but something different i could do in some spots.
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