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QQ, wet board, awkward stack sizes

TomBayes Posts: 81Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I'm unhappy with my play on this hand. I think my flop sizing was pretty bad. Let me have it...

$1/$2 NL (8 handed)
Villain 1: Very bad player, short-stacked and I feel is prone to get his last 20BB in with virtually ATC. Starts the hand with only about $40.
Villain 2: TAG regular, often plays trappy when he hits a speculative hand. Starts the hand with about $350 and has me covered.
Hero: Have only played a few orbits, probably seems nitty to the table. I start the hand with $165.
I’m on the button, V1 is UTG+1 and V2 is in the hijack.

Preflop: UTG limps for $2, V1 raises to $4, 1 fold, V2 raises to $10, Hero raises to $30, 2 folds, initial limper folds, V1 & V2 both call.
Flop ($93) Kc,8d,9c
V1 checks, V2 checks, Hero ????? (What’s your bet sizing here, I’ve got $135 left and V1 only has $12 left).




In actuality, I made it $45, V1 calls his last $10 and V2 calls.
Turn ($193) 7c
V2 checks, Hero ???? (I had $90 left the way I played the hand)

Comments

  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    Do we have the Qc? If so, ship it in. If not? I'm probably still shipping.

    I think your flop bet was fine given awkward stack sizes. Unless you are going to let it get checked through, which I think is a disaster given that there is plenty worse that will call, then you will always end up with an underbet on the turn for the rest of your stack.
  • TomBayes Posts: 81Subscriber
    Sorry, I forgot to include it, but I did have the Qc. That's obviously quite relevant.
  • CrazyCBettor Posts: 46Member
    Wackabrew said

    Do we have the Qc? If so, ship it in. If not? I'm probably still shipping.

    I think your flop bet was fine given awkward stack sizes. Unless you are going to let it get checked through, which I think is a disaster given that there is plenty worse that will call, then you will always end up with an underbet on the turn for the rest of your stack.
    Ship the turn? Why? Can you say what worse will call and what better can you get to fold?
    Flop bet is okay, you charge all draws.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    JJ and 1010 with a club along with Ac7x+ are all calling. AK without the Ac should be folding. AA/KK would have re-raised pre. We would have heard from a set on the flop if V2 is truly a TAG. Obviously turned flushes are probably never folding unless he made the call pre with like 4c5c.
  • CrazyCBettor Posts: 46Member
    Wackabrew said

    JJ and 1010 with a club along with Ac7x+ are all calling. AK without the Ac should be folding. AA/KK would have re-raised pre. We would have heard from a set on the flop if V2 is truly a TAG. Obviously turned flushes are probably never folding unless he made the call pre with like 4c5c.
    This is what bart talk about, you have to consider the entire action. What is the probability that he reraised to 10 with A9o preflop, called a 4-bet to 30, then called 45 on the flop? Similarly for the others. Why will be call flop with AcJ or AcQ?
    JJ/TT with a club might call sometimes, you listed it as if people always call with 2nd pair 3rd-4th flush draw on turns?
    Yes AK without a club can fold. I will give you that.
  • The awkward stack sizes could have been avoided by raising to 40 or 45 preflop and then shipping any flop.
  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    +1 Heis. I think this whole hand really boils down to an SPR exercise. If you are going to 3-bet PF (and I would given your stack size), I would bet an amount that leads to an easy SPR shove on the flop. $40-50 would work. Although I would probably be more cautious and shove any flop without an A or a K (since these players did call a 4-bet pre-- making A/K/pps more likely in their range). As a K did flop, I like checking flop behind and see what V2 does, as people tend to play more straight-forwardly in 3-bet pots.

    An alternative line would be to flat PF and use your position, but I don't like that play given your SPR will still be 5-7 afterwards, still not enough to have any maneuverability.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I agree that the preflop 3bet sizing leads to some in-between SPR, but I am not sure it this really changes the tricky part of the hand all that much. I think 3betting to 45 is too large, because we WANT to get called by worse (especially with position). And even if we 3bet to 40 and get called, the question whether cbetting the flop is good still remains the same.

    Alternative option: if we are sure that the shorty is likely to shove with a very wide range, I would consider 3betting to 24, so we can reraise again if he 4bets and V2 flatcalls.

    Personally, I'd often check back the flop and see what happens. Since very many players on low stakes tend to put you on AK if you 3bet, I am not sure if we'll get called my many worse hands on the flop. I then call most turns and evaluate on the river.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    CrazyCBettor said
    Wackabrew said

    JJ and 1010 with a club along with Ac7x+ are all calling. AK without the Ac should be folding. AA/KK would have re-raised pre. We would have heard from a set on the flop if V2 is truly a TAG. Obviously turned flushes are probably never folding unless he made the call pre with like 4c5c.
    This is what bart talk about, you have to consider the entire action. What is the probability that he reraised to 10 with A9o preflop, called a 4-bet to 30, then called 45 on the flop? Similarly for the others. Why will be call flop with AcJ or AcQ?
    JJ/TT with a club might call sometimes, you listed it as if people always call with 2nd pair 3rd-4th flush draw on turns?
    Yes AK without a club can fold. I will give you that.
    I don't consider the $10 to be a "real" 3 bet, as I would view the "raise" to 4 as a limp. If this guy really is a TAG, he shouldn't be calling a 3-bet OOP with the Ac7+ hands that I mentioned above, so I will concede that point. However, this would put his range much more squarely on AKo, JJ and 1010 (he shouldn't be calling J10 pre-flop either). If we jam, it'll be 90 to win 280, so he'll only need 25% equity to make a call. Maybe I'm too loose, but I'd make that call with JcJ and 10c10...I would probably fold AKo without the Ac, and I would call with AcK
  • edog Posts: 43Member
    I think V2 can a very wide range. he could have raised preflop from the hijack to isolate a short stack knowing there appeared to be a nit on the button. What was the image of the cutoff. When it gets back to him after the preflop 4 bet, it is only $20 into a pot of $73 and he closes the action.

    When V2 checks the turn he could easily be on some type of draw. If he had a king or better hand, it would seem like he would have check raised us for our last $90 on the flop and not risk a scary turn card and not get our last $90. I think the low post flop SPR should have force V2 to commit on the flop with a made hand. On the flop, when he calls $45 into a pot of $148 the odds (plus implied) are about right for him to be drawing. I would go all-in on the turn. If he has a better made hand we lose, unless we suck out. If he is drawing we may be getting value from a draw.

    If we check back the turn and he leads river, we still lose unless we have induced a bluff and we win, but the pot is partially protected so a bluff may be less likely. I am not really considering a check back turn, fold river to a bet line, seems a little weak.

    I think this hand brings up an interesting concept. An "awkward" SPR can maybe used to define a villain's range.
  • TomBayes Posts: 81Subscriber
    Thanks for many good responses. I like the idea of a larger pre-flop raise, to $40-$45. In addition to setting up an SPR of about 1, it also looks like I'm just trying to iso V1, the goofy short-stack, as that would put him all-in. I have no idea why he didn't put his last $10 in preflop. The smaller bet size idea, to try to induce a shove from V1 is interesting in that I'd also be able to see how V2 would react before proceeding further.

    If I do so, then I can shove safe flops and maybe check back dangerous flops (like the one I got) and play poker on the turn.

    What actually happened is I shoved my last $90 on the turn and got insta-called by V2 holding the nuts (AJss for the turned nut flush) and was drawing dead. We never saw V1's hand.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Not sure why everyone is so eager to get all of our money in here. The pot is protected in two ways: short stack, and the fact that it is a 3bet pot. People play much more abc straightforward poker in 3bet pots, especially when they know they are going to be showing down vs the shorty. I would have probably sized my 3bet at $35, but not that big of a deal.

    It being a 3bet pot also increases the chances that one of our opponents has a K, which they are not folding at 1/2nl in a 3bet pot. I'm surprised to hear that many players would be folding AKo (no club) ott. I don't think that line is representative of most players at those levels.

    Anyway, once your cbet is called in 2 spots, why are we shipping the turn? Are you really trying to get a fold from a K? I'd be happy to try to get to showdown here. Maybe call a small-medium bet from the live player, but fold to a big bet (see first paragraph). And definitely fold if we call turn and he still ships river.
  • Chilidog, once you 3 bet 35, cbet 45, and call a small to medium bet on the turn, how much do you think you will have left of your 165 starting stack to fold on the river? I think that putting in most of your stack and then folding on the river gives up far too much of the equity that you had on the flop in exchange for far too little savings.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Good point about becoming committed by calling a turn bet. Which is why I'm going to advocate folding on the turn. For the reasons I already posted, it is very likely the live player has us beat/crushed if he bets the turn in a protected pot. Most players at 1/2nl are happy to showdown mid strength hands when someone is all in. The villian betting indicates a very strong range.
  • Gordon806 Posts: 59Member
    Hero, I would use the small stack to my advantage pre-flop to re-open the betting so make it $22-24 and give yourself a chance to re-open the betting if you choose to do so if he ships. You have a limper, min-raise and 3-bettor in front of you. You have a lot of options. If they are going to call its not going to matter to them if you raised to $24 or $30.

    As played this is easily a flop decision. You have to ask yourself...what is my plan on the flop with this hand? Am I stacking off with this hand? Because when you bet $45 and V2 raises to $135 to put you all in, Are you folding? That is the question you need to ask yourself and answer BEFORE making the c-bet. What is my plan?

    Also, You can't be afraid everytime you have a big pair and there is an overcard on the board, if you are you're going to be folding the best hand a lot of the time.
  • edog Posts: 43Member
    I agree with you Chili. When I posted my earlier reply I didn't really consider what came on the turn focusing on the flop play. My rationale at that point was that V2 was on a likely on a draw because he flat called on the flop resulting in a 1/2 SPR effective remaining. Since the turn completes both flush and straight draws to be consistent with my flop play analysis the turn is a check back.
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