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Pocket Aces multiway

ChipChairmanChipChairman Posts: 41Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I have a tight image, but, might be seen as a gambler when I 4 betshipped with 64dd on a 7d8dTx flop with $200 and hit flush OTR against top set two hands earler.

Villain 1: (300) Playing any two cards (literally 90% of hands). Calling pot sized flop bets with gutshots, etc. Was bluffed a couple times so will def fold to extreme aggression most of the time.

Villain 2 (150) is loose passive pre but somewhat aggro post. Usually doesn't raise with draws, but will bet with all number of them post. Also bluffs more often than most in post where no one is showing any interest.

Villain 3: (500) Young player, pretty good thinking player. He called a guys triple barrel on a 9T5T7 board with 78 and was good. Said he was gonna check ship river against other guys "obvious" AK if he bricked. Also bluffed another player in a 3bet pot when he got 3 bet by the BB he raised turn on a 7892 board with an 8.

Hero is in the Cutoff with AdAs. 430ish Vil 1 limps, vil 2 limps. I raise to 12 with AA, vil 3 calls. Blinds fold, villain 2 & 3 call. Raises have been mostly in the 7-10 range. I prob could have raised to like 15 or 18 to thin the field esp since "Any two cards" is in the hand, but I raised to 12. I am in position and can play post flop.

Villain 1 and 3 could have almost anything. Villain 3 commented on how I folded my SB for $1 and he prob thinks he can bet scare me on a lot of boards. Vill 2 can have AK (Yea he might limp) AQ, AXs, KXs down to like K7 prob, AXo almost any. Most suited connectors. pairs under 9s. Prob called due to "pot odds" preflop.

Flop comes Ah5d3h. ($48) Pretty happy with the the flop. :) Vil 1 checks, vil 2 bets 10 into 48. IMO I weight his range mostly toward suited aces. A7, A8 "seeing where he is at". I raise to 35, which in hindsight is pretty small, but I think if I bomb, he folds all dominated aces, and, I dont see any reason to blow him off the hand.

Button calls, Any two cards calls (!) and vill 2 calls. Button could have almost anything. 45, Ax, flushdraw. Villain no clue.

Turn is a shitty card 9h. Pot is ~200 and villain 2 leads for 75 leaving himself 31$ behind. Puke worthy at best. I have to think one or more of these guys have a flush. What should I do?

1) Go all in. Pot is 275. Even a min raise commits me.
2) Call. getting about 3.66 to one. Might have the best hand, def have 10 outs. If Button calls or ships, I have the option of seeing what the pot looks like when it gets back to me.
3) Fold. I only have 47 invested. Yeah I have top set, and am prob drawing.


  • zmoney11 Posts: 28Member
    I would raise more on the flop b/c the board is very wet. Also, players usually call with ax on the flop. I would have made the raise 50. This way you can charge more to other players, because there are some bad turns: heart, 4, 6,2.

    Turn is a bad card. Especially b/c villain 2 bet flop and bet turn. I've noticed players doing this. Naming their price on the flop for draws. Another reason why i would raise the flop, because most players don't know odds.

    Pot is 275 to call 75 with 31 behind so you are getting 4-1 on the pot. using 45 unseen card rule 10 into 45 4.5 times you need 3.5-1 to make this neutral ev. I would call. you are getting the right odds. I feel if you raise you aren't getting called by worse. So, I feel that would be just burning money. You could for protection, but I don't like that play at all. If it gets raised I feel it depends on the player. If you are getting odds to call to fill up then yes or if they would pay you if you hit.
  • Gordon806 Posts: 59Member
    You can't fold. But given the action when villian #2 bets flop -- you said "I weight his range mostly toward suited A7, A8 "seeing where he is at" -- but now when none of that improved on the turn you want to fold. So why don't you give his complete range of a limp/call pre, then leading into 3 people for $10 on the flop and calling a raise and then leading for $75 into 3 on the turn. You can't put hands into his range on future streets dictated by the board, you can only take hands out.
  • ChipChairmanChipChairman Posts: 41Subscriber
    Yeah, I think saying villain will bet all number of draws post is saying he could have a flush-draw in his range, although, perhaps I missed saying that in flop action. I am pretty sure one might have a flush.

    Not a lot of replies maybe this is a trivial spot?
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    suited aces are a tiny part of his range, cuz ummmmmm........we can account for lots of aces. small donk bets are so often flush draws, that i would weight his range in that direction, along with some straight draws, 5Xxx, 5Xhh. you told us that V2 has a tendency towards betting draws on the flop, so why are you talking about suited aces when there is only 1 Ace unaccounted for?

    once the heart comes ott, and V2 now bets 3/4 of his remaining stack, it seems flushes are an even stronger part of his range. what hands does he donk small/call, then lead 3/4 of his stack? flush seems like the most obvious answer, with maybe a couple of sets sprinkled in there trying to protect against a 4th heart.

    on the turn the total pot is: 12x4 + 35x3 = $150ish, not $200 (or am i missing something?). when villian leads for $75 (3/4 of his remaining stack), we are almost positive he has a flush. 10 outs is not enough to call $75 for a pot of $225 (or even $255 if you consider villian will always call off his last $30 if we improve). hate to say it, but it looks like a fold.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    small donk bets are SO SO OFTEN DRAWS.. When you see this you should immediately be thinking that. now Bart always talks about that when this happens you just basically ignore the bet and bet the amount you would normally bet given the size of the pot.

    the pot is around 50 the board is VERY WET.. You need to bet close to pot.. Charge the draws!.. with the 10 buck bet the pot is now 60 so go ahead and bet close to that.. 50-60..

    Turn If you are getting better than 18 or 19% equity given the bet then you should call. 4:1 roughly I think .. the only reason why I would fold is if you think the K of hearts is behind you and that villain is deep. Then I might fold turn because I dont want to get pushed all in.. but I still might have the correct odds to call.

    I had a hand a few months back where I had about 900 to start a hand against a villain who had me covered. I flopped set he flopped straight. I called flop and turn leaving myself only 250 left after turn bet because if I hit my boat villain will be getting such good odds he would call me but I got to save my last 250.. Same concept here.

    Dont protect your hand now.. Now you are drawing to the nuts and you want to see the river for as cheaply as possible knowing you will get paid off against everyone if you hit.

  • shmed Posts: 321Subscriber
    Darn typed out a response and looks like it didn't take, so sorry if both come out. I think this is a tough spot and a lot of great comments above. Chili, I think the flop went 4 ways which is why the pot would be closer to $200 vs. $150. Using round math around $300 pot and $100 to call as V1 is effectively AI I agree that you aren't quite getting the 25% equity you need to call a flush HU (and I agree he has a flush here almost all of the time). So if you believe/read that the players behind you will fold, the lower variance route would be to make a tough fold here.

    However, if you think that players behind you are also strong and will call/raise and bloat the pot multi-way, then your pot odds improve and the math likely favors a call. E.g. equities HU vs. a flush:

    Hold'em Simulation ?
    44 trials (Exhaustive)
    board: Ah 5d 3h 9h
    Hand Equity Wins Ties
    Ad As 22.73% 10 0
    Kh Th 77.27% 34 0

    But, if two others call with either a flush or the unlikely straight
    Hold'em Simulation ?
    40 trials (Exhaustive)
    board: Ah 5d 3h 9h
    Hand Equity Wins Ties
    Ad As 25.00% 10 0
    Kh Th 75.00% 30 0
    Qh Jh 0.00% 0 0
    2s 4s 0.00% 0 0 (same if this is also a flush)

    you can see if this can go multi-way post-turn that you maintain the same equity, but you will have much better pot odds. Thus if you choose to call you are rooting for everyone else to call or even raise as well, and you can get it in with the right pot odds.

    Where this breaks down is if the others have a set, ironically, as it removes your FH outs and lowers your equity (if the other two have 55 and 33 your equity goes down to 10%). However, I would discount this as I would expect a flopped set to reraise PF and probably most 99 to fold to action PF with an A and no draws on the board.

    So I think the decision is pretty close and it's a guess on how the action will go: fold if you think it will go headsup (lower variance) or call if you expect callers/raisers behind (higher variance). I think 3 betting is the worst option since it will encourage isolating the short stack that probably has you crushed.
  • ChipChairmanChipChairman Posts: 41Subscriber
    thanks for the comments. I did in fact call,and, Vil 3 behind me over called.

    I binked an "A" OTR, So this is a happy ending. Player who donked called me an idiot and said "I had to have a flush (when I bet 75) how do you call". I didn't think my call was too bad (close) and if I thought either player behind me would call, I think it also pushes it to a call. If he has like AxKh he might bet, he might also bet again with 55 or 33 too? Discount the last 2 as they might spazz on the flop.

    River Vil 2 bet his last 31, I went all in and player behind me folded 2h4h. (I was hoping he would call with any full house, right?)

    How 2h4h just flatted my raise OTF is unbelievable.

    Thanks for the feedback.
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