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RTR--Set #4. Aggressive Action Theorem II

BartBart Posts: 6,072AdministratorLeadPro
edited November 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
10-20. 12:30 PM. Hero moved to juicy 10-20 game due to scouting report. Hero up to $9k. Very Taggy winning image. Probably VPIP of <20%. Villain in hand has played on live at the bike before. Enhanced breasts, not Cookie. Slightly baggy eyes, early 30s. Heros dream girl. Scouting report on her from DT is that she's very tight, will mix it up but doesn't put in significant money without nutty hands.

4 limps Hero had 6 6 in BB and checks.

FLOP: K 8 6

Hero checks. UTG bets $60, Fold, villain calls. Hero raises to $250. UTG folds, villain calls.


Hero bets $430, CO raises to $1300, Hero calls.


Hero checks. CO bets $3020 and is all-in. Hero?


Secondary question--

If Hero had 9 7 and craised flop to complete nuts on turn should hero ever just call to "keep a capped range" vs better players?



  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber

    If Hero had 9 7 and craised flop to complete nuts on turn should hero ever just call to "keep a capped range" vs better players?

    No because you'd want to charge sets and FDs. I don't see value in just calling when the FD and sets will always call.

  • dannydeuces Posts: 239Member
    edited November 2014
    Very, very glad to hear you will be back commentating on LATB.

    Regarding your Secondary question, if I am reading/understanding you correctly, you are looking to call the turn if you had the nuts (7 9) to include it in your range for future hands so that better players will not be able to exploit you in future hands by having a "capped" range. You are essentially looking to "balance" your range to avoid being exploited?

    I would say the answer is very, very villian-dependent. If villian is someone who will always call (a turn jam) with sets & flush draws, you would want to charge them for it (working hard's thought).

    If you 3-bet jammed turn, you would be giving villian ~3k to call to win ~9k. I assume better players would be able to get away from NFDs. With 7 9, you have "blocked" some str8/flush draw combos. I believe Q J would call jam. A Q & A J would have a tougher decision.

    I think the question would be if they are able to fold sets of 8s (and to a lesser extent 6s) to a jam on turn. Given it is a limped pot, you could easily show up with 79 there. If they can hand read that well at the table, I believe a turn call at times can keep hands in their range (sets) that they might fold to a jam.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    I am not a fan of check-raising this flop with bottom set in a multi-way limped pot unless there are several players in the field who are incapable of folding top pair. This is especially true because you have a strong winning image (conversely, I like check-raising bottom set a lot more on this K86dd flop if you have a bad losing image because you will get looked up a lot). I think that leading flopped middle set on K86dd is a better play here than check-raising.

    I am not sure how i feel about the "capped range" hypothetical question of whether to just call the turn raise with a hypothetical 97dd. I will get back to you later when I have thought about it in depth.
  • MikeG Posts: 989Subscriber
    1. Prefer to just lead flop.
    2. If read on V and read on yourself is correct, river has to be a fold. Just no way that a tight woman, playing against a player with a winning image, who doesn't put significant money in without nutted hands is bluffing and/or value-owning herself more than 33% of the time here. This is true despite the fact that she is repping such a small range (88,79s,??)
    3. I've gone to answer the capped range question 3 times, and have wanted to give a different answer two of those times. I think I'm leaning toward calling is okay against good players esp, when our nuts includes blockers (not necessarily blockers to cards that beat us, but blockers to scare cards).
  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 789Subscriber
    I'm going to stick to the primary question....and I'm doing this more to see what people think of how I'm thinking through the hand as opposed to try to give Bart any actual advice on how to play this game. There's more money in this pot in than in my whole poker bankroll, so what do I know :)

    Tough situation. Kind of thinking out loud here... Its a hard board for V to bluff, because there isn't much to represent... so if we go with that plus scouting report of V's big bets = big hands, plus that 3K is a shitload of money... lets assume its a value bet. Flopped sets make sense which we lose to, but I'm thinking we rule out KK, but 88 make sense; as does 79 diamonds; I'm trying to put a 2 pair in V's range - KT clubs kinda works if you think V would call the flop raise with TP weak kicker and runner-runner flush draw...I can't really find any other 2 pair since we effectively block 6x; I guess T8 clubs also for the same reason as KT clubs; so we lose to 6 combos of 88, 1 combo of 79 diamonds; we beat one combo of KT clubs and T8 clubs; so 7-2 against. If my math is right V's making just about a pot sized bet (3K into 3.2K) so we ain't getting the odds.

    Could V be slow playing AK or AA? Although I guess if so we have to put KK back in V's range too...

    When I see a turn raise where it doesn't seem like the turn card helped the raise, then I try to roll it back to the flop and figure out what the V is slowing playing...and I keep coming back to 88.

    I'd love to find a 2 pair hand V has that makes sense, but other than one combo of KT and one combo of T8 clubs I'm stuck since we effectively block the 68 and 65... but if we thrown them in we're still 7-4 against.

    Now if you want to throw in slow played AK/AA/KK, now it moves it to 10 combos we lose to adding in the 3 KK; we beat 6 combos of AA and 12 combos of AK; now we're ahead 22-10.

    So in order to call, we have to assume V slow plays AK/AA (no pre-flop raise), AND V is willing to push 3K on the river with just TP or over pair - which seems counter intuitive based on scouting report. Would V make that play based on Hero's perceived weakness at the end of the hand (just calls the turn raise, and checks the river)? Or would she just check back river with TP/OP due to showdown monkiness + Hero's winning image?

    I think it's a brutal fold. But what do I know.

  • doubletap Posts: 166Subscriber
    river is an easy fold, sometimes I would fold turn if villain was really nitty
  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    It all comes down to if Villian will a) call flop w/ KT b) raise turn w/ KT and then c) value shove river with it. Based on description it sounds like this isn't the case. Your hand looks like a set or a fd in this spot so unless she thinks your a complete fish and will call w/ 2 pair less than top 2, seems like a fold. Against a more aggro player there are some combo draws in their bluffing range (i.e. jq,j9,9T,etc), but this villian doesn't seem to fit the bill.
  • fishcake Posts: 1,002Subscriber
    I'd lead the flop and I think turn is maybe a fold, but river is definitely a fold.
  • Sean777 Posts: 356Subscriber
    edited November 2014
    I mean it's a straight always right? Is she bluffing all-in with missed diamonds? If so I think we should call, but that's her only other hand.

    Prior to the river, I'm saying she could perhaps have KT in addition to a straight or a flush draw.

    Sizing on the river though....Hmm....Her flop play looks exactly like a draw. Her play on the turn looks like she hit her draw.

    Sizing on river maybe huge to look like she might be bluffing?

    If we really believe she's not putting in big money without nutty hands, then this is probably a fold. I don't think she'd play KT this fast, and if the above is true, she also isn't bluffing.

    Sometimes you talk about the play of calling with a straight draw, and you can get paid off if you hit, but you can also bluff the flush and they'll fold because it's so obvious.

    If you're ever good here, it has to be her doing the inverse of that play. Calling your raise on the flop with JQd, and then bluffing the obvious straight draw when she makes open-ended? Nothing is impossible, but if you believe the scouting report it's not the case here.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    As played i think riv is a fold and not that close. Everything else seems fine to me
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited November 2014
    workinghard said:

    If Hero had 9 7 and craised flop to complete nuts on turn should hero ever just call to "keep a capped range" vs better players?

    No because you'd want to charge sets and FDs. I don't see value in just calling when the FD and sets will always call.

    Its not whether to keep in the top of his range but rather more of his middle and bottom range in that he would fold if you raise. If you play with a good player unlike most opponents they will notice if all you ever do is jam with the top or your range. It makes it harder to get value from them.

    SOOOOO.. if villain is a good player then I like flatting the raise on the turn.. Not because it caps my range but it will keep more of my weaker holdings in my range.. Also if this guy is a good player he will value own himself with greater frequency when you flat call but has a higher frequency of folding than a rec if you ship all in on turn.

    This could be profitable IF you generally dont need to play against the better player(s) and because there are far and away more mediocre weak holdings that are played relative to my nutty hand.. So yes I am giving up some equity from the top of villains range but I am getting alot more value from the middle and the bottom more often.

  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    Wendy if we are going to just call the I think I would rather do it in position. Given the action I'm not too worried about a diamond giving VA better flush. I am worried though about action killers and not maxing value in a spot where we have nuts Vs a big hand. Is the plan to call the turn raise and lead a river brick repping a missed FD? If the board pairs what's the play? I think the play has merit but we have to be very certain V will stack off if a river blank comes
  • PocketAceTrader782 Posts: 441Subscriber
    Regarding the first situation: I have seen tighter players over limp with a hand like 8's with 2 limps ahead of the them pre-flop, but also will raise the hand when they are opening the action. There may be some frequency where she over limps pocket 8s in this spot pre-flop. That being said, I think she more than likely re-raises your check raise on the flop with that hand. Therefore, I think sets are out of her range here. (I just wanted to talk myself through the hand here, might be stating the obvious.

    Any timing tells on the flop when V called the UTG's $60 bet and your check raise? I would think a quicker call has to be a draw in this situation. She also played the turn as if she hit your draw.

    I think the river is a fold. Classic "5th Street Chicken" scenario.


  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    I think I'm stating the obvious here, but the fact that nobody else has picked up on what to me is the most interesting part of this hand leads me to wonder if I'm the only sane person in the asylum...

    "Fake tits, saggy eyes, early 30s - hero's dream girl." Bart, can you please elaborate more on your definition of "dream girl?" For the fans, of course...

    Thank you, sir.
    by 1Bart
  • LuckyDucky Posts: 139Subscriber
    Doyle said "never go broke in an unraised pot"...

    She doesn't put money in without the nuts... the Turn call was to see if we get a boat on the River... since we missed, we fold...

    That being said, her River bet is weird- what does she think we have that we can call such a huge bet? Missed flush draw is going to fold. TPTK type hand is going to fold. Two pair will probably fold. Even sets/trips might fold... I think we just have to go back to our original assessment- she doesn't bet big without the nuts... again, it's a fold...
  • iLikeCaliDonksiLikeCaliDonks Posts: 932Troll
    Continue your passive preflop line otf. Its a limped pot. You are trying to push out value hands and weak draws. Make your raise ott where the pot is bigger. That way fish dont fold and say they're pot committed lol.
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