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2/5 Do you ever flat here?

beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
edited December 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hero has a tight, aggressive image. Has not shown down any bad hands.
But has won many on flop or turn with a strong bet.

Villain is a very good Asian player. He's LAGgy pre-flop, but often doesn't continue with hands that have no value. He's one of the better players in the poker room. He's notorious for calling with any two (or raising/ 3-betting) and looks for opportunities to get it all in for stacks.

Effective stack (Hero's) 900

Hero UTG raises preflop $30 with K K
3 callers - including Villain in BB.

Pot 120
Flop: 10 7 3

Checked to Hero who c-bets 80.
All fold to Villain who takes a moment and raises to 190 (110 more)

Do you ever smooth call here?


Ranges:
Hero's UTG raise w/ tight image is TT+, AK & AQs. His c-bet against 3 callers is typically a "made hand." But he may be betting on the come (w/ A K or A Q) There's an outside chance he's got KQ - but again, it would be suited.

Villain can have ATC. But a larger percentage of his range would be JJ, TT, 77, 33, T7, 73 and 8 9. Villain's flop check/raise can mean "please call me" as well as "betting for information."

If Hero 3-bets flop, does he ever fold to a Villain shove?
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Comments

  • luckyspewy Posts: 299Member
    edited December 2014
    Wouldnt he more likely squeeze TT and JJ? How often can he have JT-AT? How often will he keep the pressure on if the turn bricks when he has a combo draw?

    With all the info, I probably just flat call, I don't see the point in raising (QQ and sometimes JJ are the only hands that we beat that can stick it in here, and he should never really have those given pf action), and folding is bad for obvious reasons.

    Call and see how he trynna act. Fa real.
    by 1SKOO
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    Villain would probably 3-bet pre-flop with AK, and QQ+.

    Squeezing on the flop with a FD is possible. But typically, I'd expect the sizing to be larger. But that's just one man's read.
  • fishcake Posts: 1,002Subscriber
    Villain's raise looks like one for information or a value raise with a monster. I'd call with position.
  • Sean777 Posts: 356Subscriber
    edited December 2014
    His most likely holding is definitely a draw. Your range for him is way too narrow. LIke ridiculously narrow. If his preflop range is any two, then I wouldn't be surprised for him to have Q9clubs here. It's really hard to flop two-pair plus. It's a lot easier to flop 4 to a flush or open-ended.

    If we just call, we're kind of letting him set his price. Against a more tricky opponent like this, I may just 4-bet with the intention of getting it in on the flop. Going to be higher variance if he decides to go with his hand, but also going to prevent us from being bluffed on future streets and making a bad decision when we're not sure our hand is best.

    Our hand is best here on the flop a huge majority of the time, and I have no problems getting it in and also no problem getting him to fold his equity and taking down the pot now if I feel he's too savvy to give us more value with a 2nd best hand later on.
  • dannydeuces Posts: 239Member
    edited December 2014
    I would like a flat to see what villian does on the turn. You still have time to get all the money in with 2 streets to go if you chose. Would be put to a decision is a or 6, 8, 9, 10, J comes (thinking some type of combo draw - i.e J 9).
  • Sean777 Posts: 356Subscriber
    Yeah....that's like half the deck. If he's drawing, we're really not sure which turn cards are good or not. If he's semi-bluffing with a medium strength hand like TJ, we're not sure which turn cards are safe.

    Which is why I way prefer raising back specifically vs. a good opponent who is going to put us in a hard spot even out of position. Take the play away from him, if he wants to play for stacks I have no problem with that.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,311Pro
    I agree with Sean, His range is a lot wider if you described him correctly. If you raise back he can play perfectly with his hands that beat you but he can make a mistake with hands you beat. If you just call you are letting him play perfectly with more of his range and making the hand a lot harder to play and your are letting him play the way he feels most comfortable.
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    I agree that my described range was too narrow. In reality, a TX, 7X or even 3 4 are most likely. I guess I did so because of the re-raise. (MUBS?)

    With my tight image, I didn't expect V to raise without a hand that's either beating mine or has a lot of equity (e.g., 8 9). Otherwise, why wouldn't he flat to try and take it down on later streets?

    Bluffs were obviously part of his range - but he does a good job of merging his bets.
    So here - he's either got 2-pair+ or a draw.

    If I re-raise to 325-ish and he shoves - am I folding for 500-ish more?
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,311Pro
    beauregard said:


    If I re-raise to 325-ish and he shoves - am I folding for 500-ish more?
    Nope.
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    So at this point - if he's got a set then it's "nice hand, good game?"
  • mattb Posts: 13Subscriber
    I'm calling here like always.. why not use our position and see what he does on the turn?

    If you think he's betting again on must turns I'd much rather let him do that and raise the good ones - instead of 3 bet getting it in on the flop.


  • luckyspewy Posts: 299Member
    I don't like his sizing for a flush draw, I think he shows up with a naked 10 here much more often. I flat and play positionally.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    edited December 2014
    I think we raise here, despite the fact that his bet has pretty much leveraged our stack. Because once we re-raise we will have committed a significant portion of our stack. Assuming you have history I guess you have to figure out what is the villain more likely to do this with, a huge draw or 2pr+.

    I might flat if I had the Kc.

    Also as a side note, if your villains know your EP open raise range and you're likely to Cbet most flops, you may want to incorporate delayed cbets as you get deeper approaching 200bb+
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    My default play is to fold to flop raise. And I don't see a reason to do anything else here.
  • doubletap Posts: 166Subscriber
    why would you fold vs a loose player, I'm probably calling here
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    doubletap said:
    why would you fold vs a loose player
    Cause folding is only bad if it's exploited. Nobody raises me often enough for me to worry about being exploited.
  • Sean777 Posts: 356Subscriber
    My default play is to fold also. Against the particular villain mentioned here, my play would be to raise.

    Now we don't have total information. If this guy is loose pre and pieces off post, but only raises with made hands, well then, it's a pretty easy fold. But if he's aggressive, which is what the OP said, then I'm nearly always raising back.
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    Folding Kings here seems a little nitty. (and exploitable)
    Especially when Hero has to call $110 into a pot that's now $280.

    Wouldn't a 2-pair+ raise more to protect against a club draw?
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    Okay - so I did smooth call.
    my read on the Villain was that he's either super strong or FOS.
    i thought (wrong) that my smooth call would reinforce the strength of my hand and slow down his larceny (again, wrong).

    Turn: Q

    which we all can agree is like the 2... it's nothing unless V was playing QT to a raise.

    Since he's first to act - he bets 325 - which is essentially 1/2 my stack - leaving me only 2 moves (fold or shove). Since my shove has no fold equity, I had to decide whether my hand was good here or behind.
    While it might be MUBS to fold, I had to put him on a hand that was much stronger than mine - since i felt like i was playing my hand face up.

    (Zano - on a rainbow board, I would have been more likely to check/ make a delayed c-bet. But because of the two - I felt I need to bet for value & protection)

    I mucked. He laughed and showed the 8 - implying that he was playing sooted 78.

    Afterwards - I contemplated whether I made the right move. Maybe I should have re-raised him on the flop. Here, he would probably have folded. But if he was playing a set, he probably would have shoved. So, this might be one of those bet/fold situations... even though I'm playing for 1/2 my stack??

    Thoughts?
  • fishcake Posts: 1,002Subscriber
    Tough spot and one where you have to have a read. I think villain probly had 98, actually.
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