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2/5 NL pocket 3's in position

chendawgchendawg Posts: 4Member
edited December 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Standard 2/5 game at Caesars in Vegas. I just sat down at the table, and this is my second orbit at the table; I don't have any real reads on anyone except that the table seemed relatively normal.

My stack is $1030; villain covers.

I'm on the button with 3:spade:3:club:, MP1 raises to $20, and I flat. BB comes along for the ride.

Pot: $62

Flop: K 3 Q

PF raiser bets $50. I flat, as I wanted to underrep my hand.

Pot: $162

Turn: Q

PF raiser fires $100 into the pot. I flat again, as I felt a raise here really accomplishes nothing without a read. AA would fold, KK continues, KQ continues. Only hands I'm ahead of that I felt would call the raise would be all Qx hands that's not a boat.

Pot: $362

River: J

PF raiser fires $295 into the pot. I start tanking and think of the hands he would fire this big with. AA would check, AK would check, AQ, and all Qx I think would check in this spot here. The only reasonable combos with this line that I'm ahead of are AQ and Q10. I'm behind KK, KQ, QJ, and JJ (although I don't think JJ is in his range as played here).

If I had a read on the opponent, I'd have a much easier time in this spot.

In hindsight, if I had raised the flop I would have had a better grasp on the hand.

Any insight and thoughts are appreciated.

Comments

  • Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
    Ok this flop is a dream come true. Rainbow, you are in position, it crushes a pre-flop raisers range and..... You just flat. Oh also you are 200BBs deep so its not like you are shallow so you could make up a missed bet.

    Flop: is a raise to like $125.

    Turn: Not a great card by any stretch, but I still think it is a click back to like $225. This will do a couple things. First of all AA, AK, or any queen is not folding so you can get value. You will also find out where you are if he comes back over the top you might be able to fold.

    River: You under repped your hand so much I think it is a call. I would make this bet most likely with AK or AA and def any Q I would be betting.

    IMO biggest mistakes were the calls on the flop and turn. I think this is one of those spots where you under repped your hand so much that villain has a lot more spaz factor and even some bluffs in him so it is a call. Also, you only have to be good here 33% of the time.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    firstly you messed up the display of the suits.. just add a space and use the pulldown menu on the top right with the smiley face like this

    3 3

    So onto the hand..

    I like your play pre no reason to bloat a pot with a small pair.. You dont mind if its multi way etc...

    Flop

    you made a HUGE error in not raising.. you are 200bbs deep. How do you expect to stack villain if you do not raise and build a pot? NL is mostly about value and how often do you have a situation where both you AND villain hit board hard??? Not that often. Villain is betting into two players as pfr on a board that has high cards.. He probably missed this board and is simply repping it or he has a made hand or a draw..

    So by raising what will happen?:

    1) if he is repping he will fold.. would he put any additional money in the pot if you called flop? NO.. so you arent losing anything by raising..

    2) He has a draw.. Like AJ AT J9 will he call you if you raise? probably.. unless you bomb it .. so dont raise huge ..

    3) He has a made hand.. Is he going to call a raise ? even more likely.. the board isnt so wet so I am not going to make a huge raise..but I am raising..

    So the net net is if he is bluffing you wont get any more $$ in the pot but when he has a made hand or a draw you do.. SO MY GOD RAISE MAN.. spr is too high to get stacks in by river with a call. You HAVE TO RAISE..

    So turn.

    Now with YOU flatting the pot is really small and I think you are scared by that card and villain continuing to bet into you. Furthermore by NOT raising flop if you raise NOW you look just like every other rec player who waits to raise turn with a big hand.. So you still do not raise with a big hand further exacerbating your flop mistake. Worse is now you are getting lost in the hand.. why because you are still allowing villain to name his price for both his value range and his drawing range. I do not think he has a complete bluffing hand anymore..

    River

    Now you are completely lost in the hand. How can villain make this bet AGAIN.. usually 3 barrels is a pretty strong hand. You could go for thin value and raise but if you are not able to fold to a shove then I am just going to call. ie either you level yourself into thinking villain would do this with say AQ or AA or You urself is the rec player and cannot fold to a bet threebet..

    So in the end you will win the minimum when you are good and might lose max if you are not.. so I would take the lose least line and just call. not really sure other than AA and AQ would call my min raise anyways..

    Now had you raised flop to say $175 and you bet turn to say $225-$250 and got raised big..what would you do? call and see what happens on river.. then when villain bombs this river you can fold.. how much have you lost when you raise? pretty close to the same amount when you just called.. you might even lose LESS!

    Now had you raised and he called and you bet again and he called and you bet river..what hands is he calling and what hands is he raising you with..? can he raise you with anything other than a full house? not unless he is a complete bozo.. So you can easily just bet fold bet fold bet fold...

    ww

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Sorry another thing to think about..

    You butchered your hand pretty badly here. If you dont like playing 1000 deep and use it to your advantage.. I suggest you buy in for 500.. There you dont have much choice but to raise turn.. With a shorter stack flatting flop given the smaller spr isnt such a big mistake as you can get your stack in by raising small on turn..

    buying in for 1000 is to increase your win rate by losing Less by having the bet fold in your arsenal and winning more by winning much much larger pots when you and villain both hit. You did NOT demonstrate this ability in this hand..

    so why buy in this deep?

    ww
  • GroundhogDayGroundhogDay Posts: 287Subscriber
    ^ +1
  • chendawgchendawg Posts: 4Member
    Thanks for the comments. I just really butchered the hand beginning on the flop, because of trying to play fancy. Another factor playing in was the fact that I didn't want to be down half my stack literally 10 min in against a villain I had no reads.
  • iLikeCaliDonksiLikeCaliDonks Posts: 932Troll
    You have to be able to read flop texture. Certainly a KQx flop is a bad board to cbet into alot of players. So its an auto raise with a set on double Broadway boards when someone has lead into you.
  • Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
    chendawg said:
    Another factor playing in was the fact that I didn't want to be down half my stack literally 10 min in against a villain I had no reads.
    I know it stinks, but what you just said is a pretty big leak. Live poker moves really slowly. You might only get 2 really good chances to make a lot of money a session. They might happen in the beginning, middle, or the end.

    This is a great spot. One that could kick start your night. You did not say how it went, but if you are scared to lose the 1k then you should either buy in less or play smaller.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    chendawg said:
    Thanks for the comments. I just really butchered the hand beginning on the flop, because of trying to play fancy. Another factor playing in was the fact that I didn't want to be down half my stack literally 10 min in against a villain I had no reads.
    welcome to poker.. if thats the case then you should buy in for even less than 500 initially.. maybe even 300.. then you would be posting how you should have bought in deeper cuz you hit a set against AQ and only had 300 in front.

    why are you uncomfortable with this? that is the real issue at hand..not your play. Your play followed your mental attitude of "i dont want to get stacked" and that cost you a lot in EV..

    fix that and your play will be fine next time..

    and I have been there in your shoes .. I remember distinctly texting Claire that I had a hand where I flopped a set against a player with AK and we got it all in on flop and it was like the second hand I played ..after losing several sessions previously. I was like "fuck" but I STILL got my money in and I held up and had a great session..

    you cannot max your hrly if you are afraid of losing the money..PERIOD.. this is your BIGGEST LEAK ..

    if you do not address this.. ie bankroll comfort or game level.. you need to back off a bit until you just own that variance is part of poker and although it can happen alot in a short period of time its that exact variance that makes it possible to make so much money..

    And I am telling you this.. currently in a black hole in NL where I have lost in excess of 6k in three months. I still went to the casino on sunday and played my game.. won $1000.. had I played poorly and lost again thats MY fault..

    ww
  • chendawgchendawg Posts: 4Member
    Thehammah said:
    chendawg said:
    Thanks for the comments. I just really butchered the hand beginning on the flop, because of trying to play fancy. Another factor playing in was the fact that I didn't want to be down half my stack literally 10 min in against a villain I had no reads.
    welcome to poker.. if thats the case then you should buy in for even less than 500 initially.. maybe even 300.. then you would be posting how you should have bought in deeper cuz you hit a set against AQ and only had 300 in front.

    why are you uncomfortable with this? that is the real issue at hand..not your play. Your play followed your mental attitude of "i dont want to get stacked" and that cost you a lot in EV..

    fix that and your play will be fine next time..

    and I have been there in your shoes .. I remember distinctly texting Claire that I had a hand where I flopped a set against a player with AK and we got it all in on flop and it was like the second hand I played ..after losing several sessions previously. I was like "fuck" but I STILL got my money in and I held up and had a great session..

    you cannot max your hrly if you are afraid of losing the money..PERIOD.. this is your BIGGEST LEAK ..

    if you do not address this.. ie bankroll comfort or game level.. you need to back off a bit until you just own that variance is part of poker and although it can happen alot in a short period of time its that exact variance that makes it possible to make so much money..

    And I am telling you this.. currently in a black hole in NL where I have lost in excess of 6k in three months. I still went to the casino on sunday and played my game.. won $1000.. had I played poorly and lost again thats MY fault..

    ww
    You guys are absolutely right, and I KNOW this, but I let my emotions take over. I've got to remember that it's all one big session. I just need to remember to make the right decisions and not be results oriented.


  • GroundhogDayGroundhogDay Posts: 287Subscriber
    edited December 2014
    ^
    i am on a 10 day 5k losing streak and I can say that the last 1k I lost I was making folds that were wrong:

    Flopped set of 4s and folded to aggression when the 4th suit hit on the turn... guy rubbed bluff in my face

    Folded QQ with a K high board after a raise and a call...

    Overall not the worst plays, but I was thinking more about not losing this 1k buy-in than winning.... if that makes sense....

    Anyway... I just tightened my game up a little bit and booked a $600 win which felt good...

    Always working on my leaks... and CLP helps a lot...
  • Topset1610 Posts: 280Subscriber
    Mind letting us know what he had / your river decision?
  • GroundhogDayGroundhogDay Posts: 287Subscriber
    chendawg said:


    You guys are absolutely right, and I KNOW this, but I let my emotions take over. I've got to remember that it's all one big session. I just need to remember to make the right decisions and not be results oriented.


    the best part is you are a subscriber to this site Wendy and others give you good advice to open your eyes to this fact. Good job in posting to get others perspectives...always helps

  • chendawgchendawg Posts: 4Member
    Topset1610 said:
    Mind letting us know what he had / your river decision?
    My river decision was a fold. He wouldn't show, and didn't say anything. An hour later I regretted my decision as I saw him pretty active.

    Lessons for myself:

    No more fancy plays.
    It's one big session, don't be afraid to get it in anytime I'm playing.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited December 2014
    Chendawg

    Its a process.. I wouldnt beat yourself up over this as I dont think thats very productive.. That said your fold on the river was the worst play in the hand. I would never consider folding..

    So I suggest this.. try this for a while.. buy in for $300 when you first sit down. Give yourself a few rounds of watching the game and your opponents and the breathing room to settle down.. Then top off to the 1000.. Do this for say a few weeks.. at least a few weeks..

    Then for another few weeks ..but in initially for $400.. then top off.. Then $500 then top off.. Ten $600 then top off.. and in a few months you will be used to buy in for the max each and every time you play.

    The more comfortable you are the better you will play anyways.. and the less tilting..

    Also and not to add insult to injury..but your hand reading is a little lacking.. maybe from confidence maybe from not really putting your money where your mouth is but this is why I say this..

    YOU FOLDED.. lol.. seriously.

    when he bets.. the river you say to your self .. what I am beat by?? KQ KK QQ QJ JJ how many combos is this? 1 of QQ 3 of KK and I think 3 of KQ 3 combos of JJ 6 combos of QJ

    So we go back to the preflop flop and turn bets ..would villain play each of these hands the same way? NO

    AQ and KQ certainly fit his line. KK QQ and JJ do not however..
    KK- many players will check this with top set. He might bet but not 100% of the time..
    QQ- almost 100% of players would check the turn with quads so you can almost eliminate this
    JJ- is villain really betting turn after getting called on the flop with JJ with two over cards on the board?? Again maybe but not as likely..

    I mention this because it reduces the number of better hands he can have.. so when you add everything up I figure he has round 16 combos that beat us..

    what do you beat? AQ, AA AK, QT AT

    AA- 6 combos AQ- 4 combos AT-16 combos
    AK- 12 combos QT- 4 combos Random hands--???

    Combos we beat.. 42.. So we should NEVER be folding here.. and raising some of the time too.. raising is alot dependent on villain and our image..

    Anyways..so get your pencil out and do just what I did on hands that you have questions on and working through the combos and the betting lines will really help your hand reading..

    this will lead to increasing confidence in your hand reading and then better exploiting your opponents..

    keep it up and let us know how things go!

    ww




  • floppedawheel Posts: 1,063Subscriber
    you have to keep in mind that a call pre/call/call line is the weakest line you can possibly take without folding. there's no way this guy is even considering the possibility that you could have 3's full. you really only have to worry about KQ and QJ. KK is quite possibly checking the flop -- probably 75% of the time or more, and KQ might even check it, too -- at least 30% of the time. whenever you're unsure what to do -- you have to strongly weigh that your hand was way underplayed and that therefore your opponent will be firing with a much wider range at the end, including an increased bluffing frequency.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    chendawg said:
    Topset1610 said:
    Mind letting us know what he had / your river decision?
    My river decision was a fold. He wouldn't show, and didn't say anything. An hour later I regretted my decision as I saw him pretty active.

    Lessons for myself:

    No more fancy plays.
    It's one big session, don't be afraid to get it in anytime I'm playing.
    Results don't matter here as it really is all about how hero played the hand
  • luckyspewy Posts: 299Member
    Raise flop/Bet turn/Shove river

    If you were in his spot wouldnt you bomb Aq or AK on the river too? He's value betting so much wider than KQ or KK on this river. Yeah not to rub it in, but not only are you beating all of his bluffs, you're also beating almost all of his value hands. Given how passively youve played so far folding is not an option, it's between raise and call.

    I like a value shove.
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