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Is this too passive?

Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 578Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
It's a new game and villain has me covered no reads...3/5 - ($700 deep effective)

Two limps and hero raises to 30 on the CO with 6c6h, last limper calls
(pot $75) Flop Ts,7s6s - villain checks, hero bets $45, villain stares hero down and calls
(pot $165) Turn 4s - villain checks, hero checks ?
river 8s - villain leads for $75, hero ?

does anyone call this with no reads? what about the turn? i was thinking of bet folding and figure a medium spade would just call but was thinking I could fill up and stack the As on the river if he had a hand like AsTx.

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I just almost never see anyone bet this river without a spade.. Its just a fold. So a couple of questions for you, was the raise to iso weak players that you can steal a pot with postflop? if so then I like your raise.. if not then I hate your raise.. if the villain are not folding to your cbets then stick to value and dont raise with a pair that has little showdown value against donkey limp calls.. (kt, q9 big cards). I would rather limp along too and flop a set that I can value bet them to death..

    with players that I can bet off a better hand post flop then I am raising with a wider variety of hands these days in pos and it almost really doesnt matter what I have.. to a degree.. then I am betting to their checks on almost every flop and will double barrel if I know they play fit or fold..

    another note too.. when you flop this big on a such a wet board you really need to bet more.. there is at least 60 in the pot.. bet 55.. you will get called by the a hearts.. Also, the stare waiting for action is a tell that the player doesnt want you to bet .. weakness.. so I would put him on a draw if he calls me.. what is the most likely draw? As..

    if villain stares at you AFTER they bet that is usually stronger.. not always true but reading poker tells says you really need to pay attention when someone is strong to get the opposite tell when they are weak. so far this has been pretty true..

    fold the river..
  • Yeah, what Wendy said. Bet more on the flop and river is just a fold.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    fishcake said

    Yeah, what Wendy said. Bet more on the flop and river is just a fold.
    +1
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    Seems like the boards are full of people getting in wierd spots because of their flop bet sizing. Just hammer the flop when you have a hand. If he is calling 45 hes calling 75. I almost never bet less than 90% pot when cbetting. People call on the flop way to often. Hammer dem pots!!!


    as played you have to fold the river.
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 578Subscriber
    wendy weissman said

    I just almost never see anyone bet this river without a spade.. Its just a fold. So a couple of questions for you, was the raise to iso weak players that you can steal a pot with postflop? .
    <br

    So you are saying if the limpers are limping a solid range than I don't want to raise in position with a small pocket pair? Maybe this is a leak but I usually raise in this spot and might need to adjust. If I think I am going to get called (don't I want to get called and have position on a Limp/caller?) than I should just overlimp? I think I can pretty safely narrow the villains range on most flops in position and he isn't going to want to play a big pot OOP unless he really likes the flop and hits it hard. If I have a tight solid range myself, then I think raising here is the most profitable play and cbetting most flops as my range is overpairs to big suited cards in this spot.

    Do you treat 66 any different than 22/33 here?..Just curious...When does the pair become good enough to raise against a somewhat solid lineup in the hj/co/btn against 2 limpers?
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I heard that its Jacks or better to open.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    Rediculous - JJ or better. I raise in late position with all kinds of hands, esp pocket pairs. If you only get 2 callers odds are your good on the flop no matter what comes and you can steal being in position. I'm finding more and more I raise with all kinds of hands like J9s, K3s, etc in late position and hardly more and more play any hands from upfront. That way you can determine basedon your reads on post flop play in position what to do. I played a game last night where the world called me no matter what so Bart said I should just increase my raise size to narrow the field. I'm going to try that so I would still raise w even 22 in late pos but more so you only get 2-3 callers. Upfront is different. I may limp upfront w like suited aces like A3 or J10. I just watched a seminar Annie Duke gave which was really interesting - search it under Blip TV - Bad Beat on Cancer Series. Great videos I ran across. She talked about why limping is rarely ever correct - Good stuff. Actually one of those things I hate giving away its that good - there's a lot of great free videos on there. Cool

    Concerning your hand, I think you played it fine. You want to get called by draws on the flop so I dont mind your bet size at all and you're not giving him odds as long as you dont pay him off in the future with that sizing. Concerning betting the turn, I would probably do the same as you. I dont think much worse is calling you here. The river is villian dependant. Ive made hero calls here but its all dependant on whether you've seen him bluff before or not. Barring any tells or info I think a fold is correct. A lot of people will check the turn when they hit the nut flush. Did he check his cards on the flop? Thats a tell he's on a draw maybe because he's checking for a spade. I hero called a guy the other night and was right with 4 spades on the board because when watching him check his hand when the board came out monotone he looked disappointed. When the 4th spade came he insta shoved and I called and he sure enough had a black Ace but it was the Ace of clubs. I probably wouldn't have called if I hadnt seen that. The fact he insta-shoved was another tell which led me to call a big bet with only a 9 high flush but I probably wouldve called w TPTK there as well.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Chill dude. Where is your sarcasm meter?
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    chilidog said

    I heard that its Jacks or better to open.
    +1

    The way that you played this hand, I actually like a bet out on the turn - somewhere between 80-100. The small flop sizing has put us in a position where Villian's hand is not super defined. Depending on Villian's reaction to our turn bet (shouldn't the 4th spade scare us?), then we can decide what to do on certain rivers.

    As played, this river is a snap fold against any Villian. You are calling for a chop (at best), as any spade in his hand beats the board. If you want to get all fancy, you could, in theory, raise to like $175, as your hand looks as though it could be a high pair with a spade. You could probably get J,9,8,5 spades to fold, but that would be a pretty high variance play.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    chili wins the thread IMO. Wink
  • Dan,

    Come on man, you got to lighten up a little. No one is here to personally attack you. Your posting tone seems like its always you vs the rest of the world. We are all here to help each other :) . With that being said I don't understand why you would raise hands like J9, K3ss when in other threads you are complaining about everyone calling. Raising in these types of games should be strictly for value.

    Now, I also don't like raising these types of set mining pairs (and I do treat 22-66 the same) over more than one person. Sometimes you can do it over two if you think the upfront limper is rather weak and will fold. But it's key you notice the 1ST limper's tendencies. Its rare that the second guy is going to overlimp, then fold if limper #1 calls. Usually the reason to make sweetener raises with small pocket pairs is to build a pot up so that if you do flop big you can win a monstrous pot. If you have the postflop skills you can maneuver the pot anyway so you don't need to juice it up pre. Remember no one fold at these levels.

    Bart
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Drew said
    wendy weissman said

    I just almost never see anyone bet this river without a spade.. Its just a fold. So a couple of questions for you, was the raise to iso weak players that you can steal a pot with postflop? .
    <br

    So you are saying if the limpers are limping a solid range than I don't want to raise in position with a small pocket pair? Maybe this is a leak but I usually raise in this spot and might need to adjust. If I think I am going to get called (don't I want to get called and have position on a Limp/caller?) than I should just overlimp? I think I can pretty safely narrow the villains range on most flops in position and he isn't going to want to play a big pot OOP unless he really likes the flop and hits it hard. If I have a tight solid range myself, then I think raising here is the most profitable play and cbetting most flops as my range is overpairs to big suited cards in this spot.

    Do you treat 66 any different than 22/33 here?..Just curious...When does the pair become good enough to raise against a somewhat solid lineup in the hj/co/btn against 2 limpers?
    In my experience in the smaller games you will have a lot of the player pool that will simply call if they hit the board.. They are more of calling stations. Against these types of players its just not profitable to try and iso with smallish pocket pairs in my hubble opinion. So with a pair like 66s unless the players are weak (ie fit or fold) I just think its better to try and play more for value and not raise. Just get in the pot cheaply , flop a set and they will happily pay you off when you hit.

    With a bigger pair then of course I am raising for VALUE since again they will call more and I will get more value.. Same for big broadway cards as well. Raise for value more in smaller bling games against stationey type players..

    ww
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