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3/5 Live; KK HUFTA, Facing Big River Bet...

Vince Posts: 23Subscriber
edited December 2014 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hand I played on 12/13/14
I'm effective, @ ~$600. Target just sat down few mins ago, loaded for $1000 and has seen maybe 10 hands and played 1 + this current one.

I'm UTG with black Kings and open to $20.
Folds around to HJ (Target in this hand) who flats; remaining players fold.
Pot = $48.
Range I'm giving Target:
AA-55, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs
AKo-AJo, KQo-KJo, QJo
J9s-87s, JTo-J9o


Flop: 3 9 8
My plan considering the variables:
- I don't want to be leading out here, esp with no diamond in my hand, and create a big pot when I'm out of position with a player who has me covered and I don't have any reads on, for example, I don't want to bet pot-ish and get raised, flat the raise, then get bet into on a turn I don't improve on when I check, and have to fold the best hand.
- If he's gonna run a bluff on me he's more likely to do so when I show weakness, and I'll be able to bluff-catch more profitably with a non-large/huge pot.
- I only, theoretically, am protecting against an Ace.
- I wanna get to showdown with this hand with a decent size pot, but not too large.
- I'll be able to get value from worse pairs for 2 streets in which T's, J's, & Q's are in his PF calling range from HJ, as well as some 9's or 8's that want to look me up on the River with a medium size pot; I don't believe I'll get all 3 streets of value, and if I check the River I'd rather not open myself up to a sophisticated Bluff line either, by this player double floating me or turning his Med. Str. hand into a bluff.

Flop Action:
I check with the plan to check/call the flop all the way up to Pot. With the follow-up plan to check/call almost all turns whilst evaluating a Turned Ace or board paired 9 or 8. I plan to even check-call all diamonds as it can be a great card to bluff at.
Target bets $40. I complete my plan and check/call.
Pot = $128. My money left behind = ~$525.

Turn: 4
Turn Action:
I check.
Target bets $75.
I check-call.
Pot = $278. My money left behind = ~$450.

River: 4
River Action:
I check again, hoping to get to a free showdown.
Target bets $300.

I put myself in this stupid spot by check-calling Flop & Turn and now I know his range is polarized. I don't believe he'd turn Med. Str. hands into bluffs in THIS SPECIFIC SPOT.
Value hands I'm assigning Target are flushes and houses.
Bluff hands I'm assigning Target are AK's, AQ's, AJ's (including A K and Q busted flushes) and 2pair 98 that is over-repping their hand, #1 because I under-repped mine, and #2 because he just might be recreational enough to not realize that an overpair just counterfeited him.

I tank/call.
When I set out my plan from the flop I know I wanted to bluff-catch with a non-huge pot, and though this River bet makes the pot so, I believe it's extremely polarizing.
I've gone over this hand a few times and have remembered Bart mentioning tendencies on the River at this level.
Let me know you're thoughts, both on 1) Which PF-to-River line you would rather have taken and 2) What your River action is considering how the hand played out with player (no)-dynamic involved.

Thanks guys!

Comments

  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 1,977SubscriberProfessional
    That line seems way too passive headsup, especially headsup against an unknown. Based on the range you gave him, you are ahead on the flop, but there are cards that will kill your action on the turn. Bet the flop to get your value now. If raised, only 120 BB deep, I might be okay getting it in here. He can have so many draws.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,804Subscriber
    Your pre flop range seems off unless you got some reads on this guy.

    Also you should be leading here cause we ate ahead of his range he doesn't just have draws he could have TPs and slight over pairs.

    I understand not wanting to bloat A pot OOP but with our hands and this flop we are ahead of so much if his range we ate losing so much values here. We are only behind sets and 98.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,386Subscriber
    Don't like your line at all. Why give up the betting lead and turn your high value KK into a bluff catcher?

    The plan should be to bet/fold here. If I checked this flop HU, my plan would be to check raise huge. Having said that, it is much much better to just keep the lead, and if he raises at any point in the hand you can evaluate and lean towards folding.
  • BradleyT Posts: 621Subscriber
    $75 turn bet to $300 river bet just screams value to me.
  • Vince Posts: 23Subscriber
    I loved all the comments, they all make plenty of sense.
    So, I've been thinking which different postflop strategy I'll deploy in future spots like this and I really love the check/raise line, even though I'd holster it as my second option. Raise size depending, I believe I can deny him the odds to draw, and/or I can get him to spazz-shove and leave myself a much more comfortable stack-off decision. (What do you guys think about my logic for this line?)

    But my first selected line should be what everyone is calling for: Leading Out!
    It makes more sense now because he may feel if I lead out pot, that I'll be less willing to fold to a raise, thus, decreasing his bluffing frequency and putting me in a tough spot.
    My follow up plan on the Turn would be to Bet/Fold completing Straights, Flushes, and Paired Top Pairs. Do you think I should even be Bet-Folding to brick Turns?
    I was thinking about perhaps Bet-Calling brick turns (size pending) and then Check-Folding all non-King Rivers.
    Now that we've concluded that my line was terrible, which I agree, how about this new line for future spots? Especially the Turn & River lines?
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,386Subscriber
    remember you raised utg with KK, you have the betting lead and a value hand you want to get calls from. your goal should be to get two streets of value and possibly three. you can best do that by bet/folding.

    check raising is not the best here with your kings, because you don't want folds from under pairs or draws. if you opened with QJdd, then check raising makes sense, because you don't mind the villain folding his equity with your diamond draw as back up.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    Even with the long explanation none of those are really a reason to call down with KK. You should be getting value from 1010, 77, JJ and every SC and Ax you could have been called by PF that will call you down chasing or hitting weaker than you. As played, call. He could be doing this with 10's and your too strong.
  • Vince Posts: 23Subscriber
    pokertime said:
    Even with the long explanation none of those are really a reason to call down with KK. You should be getting value from 1010, 77, JJ and every SC and Ax you could have been called by PF that will call you down chasing or hitting weaker than you. As played, call. He could be doing this with 10's and your too strong.
    Pokertime, I felt the same on the river and did so.
    So, then, you said my reasons for my line aren't valid. Do you feel there are ANY reasons that ARE valid for the taking the line?
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,804Subscriber
    Rare occurrence when Vil spazzes like crazy if we show weakness?
  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    Vince said:
    pokertime said:
    Even with the long explanation none of those are really a reason to call down with KK. You should be getting value from 1010, 77, JJ and every SC and Ax you could have been called by PF that will call you down chasing or hitting weaker than you. As played, call. He could be doing this with 10's and your too strong.
    Pokertime, I felt the same on the river and did so.
    So, then, you said my reasons for my line aren't valid. Do you feel there are ANY reasons that ARE valid for the taking the line?
    Hopefully this doesn't seem rude as I am trying to help and find out if my thinking is OK at the same time.

    "Flop: 3♦ 9♦ 8♥
    My plan considering the variables:
    - I don't want to be leading out here, esp with no diamond in my hand, and create a big pot when I'm out of position with a player who has me covered and I don't have any reads on, for example, I don't want to bet pot-ish and get raised, flat the raise, then get bet into on a turn I don't improve on when I check, and have to fold the best hand."

    You should be leading out a lot, maybe 100% unless you have some super read you need to trap. You'll be getting called by A8,A9, J10 and lots of worse pairs. Not having a diamond isn't a problem now. You can worry about that later. If he raises you can re-evaluate but you shouldn't be playing scared he's going to raise. Play your game and adjust when he plays back.

    "- If he's gonna run a bluff on me he's more likely to do so when I show weakness, and I'll be able to bluff-catch more profitably with a non-large/huge pot."

    This should not be your initial plan even if you decide to pot control for some reason later. And if your going to catch him bluffing wouldn't you want to do it for stacks?


    "- I only, theoretically, am protecting against an Ace."

    Your not really protecting your trying to get value from worse. You want to get value out of A9, AK etc.

    "- I wanna get to showdown with this hand with a decent size pot, but not too large."

    This should almost never be your thinking. Pot control is misunderstood. It's big bet poker. You should be shoveling money in with a made top hand unless you have information that you aren't good.

    "- I'll be able to get value from worse pairs for 2 streets in which T's, J's, & Q's are in his PF calling range from HJ, as well as some 9's or 8's that want to look me up on the River with a medium size pot; I don't believe I'll get all 3 streets of value, and if I check the River I'd rather not open myself up to a sophisticated Bluff line either, by this player double floating me or turning his Med. Str. hand into a bluff."

    Then it should be the first 2 streets before he catches up or gets scared. You are giving this guy a lot of credit when you say you have no reads. You are making a lot of assumptions about his ability to out play you and making passive adjustments that can hurt your game.

    Now obviously the turn is a problem with the diamond but things might have gone differently if you bet the flop. Also, you said you wanted to bluff catch and the diamond is the perfect card for him to bluff once you showed weakness.

    Please let me know if I am nuts. I'm really here to help and learn!
  • Vince Posts: 23Subscriber
    pokertime said:
    Vince said:
    pokertime said:
    Even with the long explanation none of those are really a reason to call down with KK. You should be getting value from 1010, 77, JJ and every SC and Ax you could have been called by PF that will call you down chasing or hitting weaker than you. As played, call. He could be doing this with 10's and your too strong.
    Pokertime, I felt the same on the river and did so.
    So, then, you said my reasons for my line aren't valid. Do you feel there are ANY reasons that ARE valid for the taking the line?
    Hopefully this doesn't seem rude as I am trying to help and find out if my thinking is OK at the same time.

    "Flop: 3♦ 9♦ 8♥
    My plan considering the variables:
    - I don't want to be leading out here, esp with no diamond in my hand, and create a big pot when I'm out of position with a player who has me covered and I don't have any reads on, for example, I don't want to bet pot-ish and get raised, flat the raise, then get bet into on a turn I don't improve on when I check, and have to fold the best hand."

    You should be leading out a lot, maybe 100% unless you have some super read you need to trap. You'll be getting called by A8,A9, J10 and lots of worse pairs. Not having a diamond isn't a problem now. You can worry about that later. If he raises you can re-evaluate but you shouldn't be playing scared he's going to raise. Play your game and adjust when he plays back.

    "- If he's gonna run a bluff on me he's more likely to do so when I show weakness, and I'll be able to bluff-catch more profitably with a non-large/huge pot."

    This should not be your initial plan even if you decide to pot control for some reason later. And if your going to catch him bluffing wouldn't you want to do it for stacks?


    "- I only, theoretically, am protecting against an Ace."

    Your not really protecting your trying to get value from worse. You want to get value out of A9, AK etc.

    "- I wanna get to showdown with this hand with a decent size pot, but not too large."

    This should almost never be your thinking. Pot control is misunderstood. It's big bet poker. You should be shoveling money in with a made top hand unless you have information that you aren't good.

    "- I'll be able to get value from worse pairs for 2 streets in which T's, J's, & Q's are in his PF calling range from HJ, as well as some 9's or 8's that want to look me up on the River with a medium size pot; I don't believe I'll get all 3 streets of value, and if I check the River I'd rather not open myself up to a sophisticated Bluff line either, by this player double floating me or turning his Med. Str. hand into a bluff."

    Then it should be the first 2 streets before he catches up or gets scared. You are giving this guy a lot of credit when you say you have no reads. You are making a lot of assumptions about his ability to out play you and making passive adjustments that can hurt your game.

    Now obviously the turn is a problem with the diamond but things might have gone differently if you bet the flop. Also, you said you wanted to bluff catch and the diamond is the perfect card for him to bluff once you showed weakness.

    Please let me know if I am nuts. I'm really here to help and learn!
    pokertime said:
    Vince said:
    pokertime said:
    Even with the long explanation none of those are really a reason to call down with KK. You should be getting value from 1010, 77, JJ and every SC and Ax you could have been called by PF that will call you down chasing or hitting weaker than you. As played, call. He could be doing this with 10's and your too strong.
    Pokertime, I felt the same on the river and did so.
    So, then, you said my reasons for my line aren't valid. Do you feel there are ANY reasons that ARE valid for the taking the line?
    Hopefully this doesn't seem rude as I am trying to help and find out if my thinking is OK at the same time.

    "Flop: 3♦ 9♦ 8♥
    My plan considering the variables:
    - I don't want to be leading out here, esp with no diamond in my hand, and create a big pot when I'm out of position with a player who has me covered and I don't have any reads on, for example, I don't want to bet pot-ish and get raised, flat the raise, then get bet into on a turn I don't improve on when I check, and have to fold the best hand."

    You should be leading out a lot, maybe 100% unless you have some super read you need to trap. You'll be getting called by A8,A9, J10 and lots of worse pairs. Not having a diamond isn't a problem now. You can worry about that later. If he raises you can re-evaluate but you shouldn't be playing scared he's going to raise. Play your game and adjust when he plays back.

    "- If he's gonna run a bluff on me he's more likely to do so when I show weakness, and I'll be able to bluff-catch more profitably with a non-large/huge pot."

    This should not be your initial plan even if you decide to pot control for some reason later. And if your going to catch him bluffing wouldn't you want to do it for stacks?


    "- I only, theoretically, am protecting against an Ace."

    Your not really protecting your trying to get value from worse. You want to get value out of A9, AK etc.

    "- I wanna get to showdown with this hand with a decent size pot, but not too large."

    This should almost never be your thinking. Pot control is misunderstood. It's big bet poker. You should be shoveling money in with a made top hand unless you have information that you aren't good.

    "- I'll be able to get value from worse pairs for 2 streets in which T's, J's, & Q's are in his PF calling range from HJ, as well as some 9's or 8's that want to look me up on the River with a medium size pot; I don't believe I'll get all 3 streets of value, and if I check the River I'd rather not open myself up to a sophisticated Bluff line either, by this player double floating me or turning his Med. Str. hand into a bluff."

    Then it should be the first 2 streets before he catches up or gets scared. You are giving this guy a lot of credit when you say you have no reads. You are making a lot of assumptions about his ability to out play you and making passive adjustments that can hurt your game.

    Now obviously the turn is a problem with the diamond but things might have gone differently if you bet the flop. Also, you said you wanted to bluff catch and the diamond is the perfect card for him to bluff once you showed weakness.

    Please let me know if I am nuts. I'm really here to he!
  • Vince Posts: 23Subscriber
    Hopefully this doesn't seem rude as I am trying to help and find out if my thinking is OK at the same time.
    I totally feel ya. Not taking umbrage at all.
    Plenty of your responses to my thoughts make sense.
    I'm doing my best to work at improving, you're doing you're best to work at improving, we're all doing our best to improve and I believe steel sharpens steel and we as players do that by challenging each others thinking and logic. I'm very comfortable being wrong, or, incorrect, but at the end of the day I must know why the alternative is more accurate or more optimal as it helps me internalize the better thinking structure for similar spots in the future, which is why I'm really thankful for everyone's responses to this discussion.

    Like I said in my initial post, I'm that one that put myself in the joke of a spot on the River by my passive line. I believe my thinking on the the River (in a vacuum) is correct, but failed to consider the context of it being a low-level game and that players at these levels just don't bluff often in these River spots.

    But you did answer my question:
    Do you feel there are ANY reasons that ARE valid for the taking the line?
    And that was a "yes", IF I had some super read where I'd be able to extract more value by trapping.
  • Sean777 Posts: 356Subscriber
    You basically butchered this hand. I like a bet on the flop. If called on the flop, bet-fold the diamond turn. If raised on the flop, maybe jam or call to shove a non-diamond, non-straightening turn.

    Checking in order to induce bluffs from you opponent in a single-raised heads up pot in $2-$5 live is not going to be an optimal line unless you two have some serious history. Major reg war territory bro. Otherwise, they're not gonna try and blast the river for $300 to get you off an overpair(wut).

    When you check this HEADS UP, it looks like you're going to call. Maybe your opponent might take a stab with a pair or some sort of equity, but A LOT of the time, you're just gonna see him check back all his air and just try and hit something.

    Once he bets $75 on the turn, on a diamond, well, let's be honest here, he has something. He could easily have a flush, two pair still, set still. But if for some reason I ever check-called flop, I think I'd have to check-call turn as well, because, yeah, our hand is under-repped and MAYBE he is making a move with like one diamond in his hand.

    But the river...oh boy if you called that river, I think that's a huge mistake. That's where you really screwed it up, besides your overall bad plan to begin with.

    Is it polarized? Yeah of course it is. Is he ever bluffing? Hmm, I'll just say no. This is live poker friend. Bluffing frequencies on the river from standard competition are about nil. Zilch. Nada. And even from good players, *especially* in this spot, he absolutely has to have something. Why? Because YOU called him on the turn with 3 diamonds out there! This is just the most basic of hand-reading here, but if he's got some busted draw, only the most insanely aggro of players is going to turn TJ-offsuit into a triple-barrel on the river here.

    And if he did, I'd expect a smaller bet. Live players are basically bitches, and even if he's a good player, he's probably going to want to risk less on his bluffs. I still don't really expect a bluff in this spot, but from a good player, if he goes like $150, maybe he has a busted draw he's underbluffing, or he's actually value betting something worse like JJ or QQ. It's possible... With $300, I really don't think it is. He's basically nutted.

    Without more information on the villain this is an easy, easy fold. I expect a boat or a flush nearly always.

    Did you post results or did I just miss it?
  • Vince Posts: 23Subscriber
    Sean777 said:
    You basically butchered this hand. I like a bet on the flop. If called on the flop, bet-fold the diamond turn. If raised on the flop, maybe jam or call to shove a non-diamond, non-straightening turn.
    First off, love your post. Much appreciated on the candor.

    Yeah I posted that I tank-called. Why tank-call? Strictly because of everything you and a few people are alluding to, and a bluff-line I would consider taking myself, because if opponents in my spot should generally be folding here like almost 100% of the time, shouldn't the Targets non-nutted range (including Med Str hands) be bluffing here because they can't win a showdown given my Flop and Turn calls? Basically, "If he's practically NEVER bluffing here, he should then be bluffing plenty."
    I'm just thinking to myself "If I had JTs, or TT or JJ here, or even a PF flatted AQs-AJs I am like 99% of the time losing at showdown if I check this River back, so I HAVE to bluff, and close to this size too, which brought me to the decision to call. That and also his pot bet instead of something like 1/2 pot which would make for an easier value bet to be called, but like Pokertime said, "this is big bet poker", so the pot value bet falls in line with how to win in NLHE.

    Also, I have this really terrible belief that I feel seriously hurts my game: That everyone at the table, regardless if it's .05/.10 or 5/5, knows just as much as I do and 3x more. For some reason I feel that EVERYONE I play against is Bart Hanson, or Chan, or the likes of the most elite of cash game players out there, that "everyone at the table is the equivalent of a chess master or grandmaster."

    I think I have a habit of out-leveling myself. :yell:

    So, I'm gonna go over and over and over your post and really work on internalizing the logic.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,083SubscriberProfessional
    You tank called and lost ?? to what then??

    Since so many players wont bet later in the hand with say 99 after you call flop there is little reason to check and take a passive line..

    I like playing dead when I am up against a good player who can bet thinly for value and let them value own themselves .. NOT to induce a bluff when most players dont bluff..

    the bet little bet little bomb line is so often a value hand that I am going to fold when I see this..

    ww
  • Vince Posts: 23Subscriber
    Target tabled Q J
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,386Subscriber
    While the results of this particular hand are irrelevant, because you would have lost this hand. The important takeaway is how you decided to play it for one, and two your general belief that your opponents are superstars who think 3x better than you.

    I do not subscribe to the everyone is bad until proven otherwise, I also don't go the other way and believe everyone is some poker genius either. Most of the people you play with are going to regular joes, who like you are playing this for fun, side money etc. whatever. There is no need to level yourself when most won't have any idea to how level you in the first place.
  • nariman44nariman44 Posts: 96Subscriber
    instead of bet folding the turn, I would bet smaller on the turn in this spot, because of 2 reasons:
    1- if he raises the turn you can call the turn raise and check fold the river.
    2- some players would still flat call the turn with a made flush to make their move on the river, so when you bet small on the turn you have more room to blocking/value bet the river and safely fold to a raise.

    Imagine that you bet big on the turn and he only flats. now you check the river and he bets big. what would you do? you never know if he is bluffing or not. but when you leave room for yourself to blocking/value betting the river and face a raise then you are behind. Therefore, betting 2/3 of the pot on the turn is not a good idea.
    If you know he may not raise his made flush. bet 1/3 of the pot on the turn. if raised, depending on the raise amount you can fold or call and check the river. if he just called the turn bet now you can blocking/value bet the river.
  • Polarized Posts: 195Subscriber
    I have not seen any other reply.

    To me this is a bet flop ~38, bet fold ~70 on the turn. Bet fold ~120 into 264 on the river to get value from A9 and K9s, 1010-QQ. Heads up, we can't automatically assume that V always has a flush.

    There are too many draws in his range to flat any raise on the flop. I'd be 3 betting any raise of my flop bet for max value and secondary for protection and getting it all in on any turn brick.

    Your check call line has lead you to a tough decision. I strongly dislike your mindset, 'I just want to get to showdown'. You've given up on the initiative on a wet board when when you should have continued with your story and got value from draws and kept asking the questions!

    As played, although you have under repped your hand, I think I'm leaning towards a fold even though V is polarised.

    Is he really going to turn K9s A9s or 1010 to QQ into a bluff (hands which I think should also be in his preflop flatting range, being in position facing a UTG raise)?

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