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Interesting spot in bb....

Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Playing in a fairly nitty 5/10 game and get Q5cc in bb 2 limps, sb completes and I check my option. I have 1.6K and villain covers who is 2nd limper has me covered....1st limper and sb are not relevant in this hand.

Villain is a recreational reg who is pretty standard....a few years ago he was a station and has tightened up is pretty fit or fold player who has respect for my game and rarely makes moves against me.

Flop ($40) Q54 with one club. I lead for $30 V calls.
Turn ($100) 9c I lead for $70 V raised to $220.

What's my best play here? If I call pot will be $540 and I have about $1300 left. Ever folding here? Thoughts on a bet, 3 bet?

Thanks....

Comments

  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    It's a significant difference if the Q is a club or not IMO.
    If the Q is not a club and you think villain is capable to raise with draws/pair+draw as a semibluff, I would go ahead and 3bet to around 480 (and mostly fold to a reraise, but this depends on his timing, behaviour etc).
    If the Q is a club and you think he will do this mainly with made hands, I would call the turn and check-evaluate the river.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    I had the Qc in my hand....flop was Qx4c5x rainbow
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    TedMcDonnell said

    I had the Qc in my hand....flop was Qx4c5x rainbow
    oh, I see. I misread the hand, sorry!
    As I said, if you think he is capable of raising with hands like JcTc, KcTc etc.., I would 3bet. If you think he'll raise you mainly with made hands, I'd rather call.
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    The problem here is even if he's capable of raising combo draws ott, how does he call the flop bet vs an opponent he respects on a q 4 5 rainbow boardwith just backdoor equity?

    The only combo draws I imagine would be straight draws on the flop that picked up a fd on the turn (76cc, a2cc etc.) And a lot of rec players won't even raise those hands, esp. In a limped pot bc they can't cap your range at big pairs.

    I think I'd rather call, but I do play on the tighter side.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    I'm never folding, but I am also not raising. I think that Villian can have 44 here a ton (some 55 but that is only one combo so discounted). Potentially 99 that one-timed the flop. Most nitty players aren't going to show up with a combo draw like JT/KT/J8cc here very often, as they would likely just fold to the flop bet. 67cc and 34cc could be possibilities. Open ended with a flush draw is probably the bottom of a nitty players range. I would be leery of a set here.

    River is a bet fold assuming the board doesn't pair in your favor, something like $350-$400 and fold to a ship.
  • Although I am generally in favor of bet folding in a lot of situations, on a blank river I check fold here most of the time. The only things that I see you possibly ahead of on the turn are those combo draw types of hands. Your opponent's river bluffing frequency is a lot lower than people realize when you call his raise on the turn. I am probably going to discuss this hand on this week's show. I think the guy shows up a ton with sets and queen-9 here IF he bets the river. He could be stop raising the turn with a hand like AQ but he is going to check that back at the end. I call and definitely lead a club at the end. If you bink a queen or a 5 its not a terrible spot to go for a check raise.

    Bart
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    This villain plays fairly straight forward and is much more likely to limp pf with a hand like 44 or 55 then AQ....he raises pre with QQ, 99 and AQ almost all the time. 44 and 55 (less combos) are in his range and I think Q9 suited is a possibility. Very unlikely he has bigger clubs here so I am planning to bomb river if a club or 5 comes.

    I call his turn raise ($540) river is 2s.

    I don't hate the argument for bet folding but with my history with the villain I really felt like Q9 or 44 were two most likely hands. I elect to check the river and he bets $500 (throws out one purple chip). With this bet sizing I think Q9 is less likely now and I think he has 44 or a combo draw that bricked out. I agree his bluffing range goes down when I call turn raise but this guy knows I am capable of making big folds.

    Anyone like a check call line here? Also comments/feedback on my sizing on flop and turn?

    thanks....
  • Why would Q9 go down here with his sizing on the river? And what possible combo draws would he play this way A2cc, A3cc and 67cc? I fold here. I just don't see that you are good getting the pot odds. 6 combos of sets and a few combos of Q9s. You are looking at 7-8 hands that beat you and maybe three that are bluffs. However, I think that he bluffs with those hands maybe as little as 33% of the time so I would reduce it down to about 5 or 6-1 in value hands vs bluffs.

    Bart
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    TedMcDonnell said

    Villain is a recreational reg who is pretty standard....a few years ago he was a station and has tightened up is pretty fit or fold player who has respect for my game and rarely makes moves against me.

    .
    I think that if this is your read, you have to fold. This isn't a move. He has a hand here always, and we don't beat much (even one of the combo draws - A3cc - gets there on the river). If he thought you had busted clubs, he would have checked back (you aren't calling anyway). Making a pot sized raise on the turn and then a pot sized bet on the river is really strong. There are so many hands that we are losing to, and very few that we beat.

    That said, if you are trying to convince yourself to check call, why not just bet/fold? A bet, bet/call, bet line looks super strong as well, and if he has 44 or Q9, he isn't folding but would probably not raise. A Block-ish/Underbet on the river would be my play (even though I know Bart recommended the check/fold). By checking the river you've induced the potential for bluffs (albeit a very small portion of his range), and now you are potentially leveling yourself into a call for $500 when you could have gotten the same information for much cheaper.

    I think that the Flop and Turn sizing are fine. You have a pretty big hand in a limped pot...you want to build it up.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    Bart said

    Why would Q9 go down here with his sizing on the river? And what possible combo draws would he play this way A2cc, A3cc and 67cc? I fold here. I just don't see that you are good getting the pot odds. 6 combos of sets and a few combos of Q9s. You are looking at 7-8 hands that beat you and maybe three that are bluffs. However, I think that he bluffs with those hands maybe as little as 33% of the time so I would reduce it down to about 5 or 6-1 in value hands vs bluffs.

    Bart
    I think he is less likely to have Q9 with this sizing because he is not a good enough player to value own himself and bet Q9 (especially a almost pot size bet) and risk me having 44. Against me I think he checks back the river with Q9 and vs players he knows less bets smaller. Just something I know from playing hundreds of hours with him. That's why when he bets that much on the river I think its a set or a bluff.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    So I end up folding and villain tells me after the session he had 44 and I believe him.

    Thanks for the posts....
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