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Online Session from Hell- Hand 1 - Turning 2 pr.

wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Here's the hand:

Merge, $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (MP3): $251.41 (125.7 bb)
CO: $73.25 (36.6 bb)
BTN: $174.50 (87.3 bb)
SB: $207.80 (103.9 bb)
BB: $42.40 (21.2 bb)
UTG+1: $186 (93 bb)
UTG+2: $69.40 (34.7 bb)
MP1: $330.38 (165.2 bb)
MP2: $126.95 (63.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Th 8h
4 folds, Hero raises to $7, CO folds, BTN calls $7, SB raises to $18.50, BB folds, Hero calls $11.50, BTN calls $11.50

Flop: ($57.50) Ad 8c 6h (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $28.75, BTN folds, SB calls $28.75

Turn: ($115) Tc (2 players)
SB bets $57.50, Hero calls $57.50

River: ($230) 9s (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $146.66 and is all-in, SB calls $103.05 and is all-in

Results: $436.10 pot ($3.00 rake)
Final Board: Ad 8c 6h Tc 9s
Hero showed Th 8h and lost (-$207.80 net)
SB showed As Ac and won $433.10 ($225.30 net)

Preflop:
Ok, so you can question the call preflop but I put him on a strong hand and figured because I had position I'd take a aflop even though he wasn't quite deep enough because of the position with this Implied odds hand I called.

Flop:
Is only better calling? Probably I figure though with a pair and 3 people I should bet here but in hindsight he's calling the flop with his entire 3b range at least once so I probably shouldve checked.

Turn:
Of course I turn 2 pair. Welcome to online poker. I think just calling here is fine.

River:
I like my river bet. Anyone disagree? I can defn get called by AK, AQ but not much else. I dont think hes 3 betting pf with hands that make 2 pr by the river.

Comments

  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    wildncrazyguy - AKA Dan VanDyke said

    Preflop:
    Ok, so you can question the call preflop but I put him on a strong hand and figured because I had position I'd take a aflop even though he wasn't quite deep enough because of the position with this Implied odds hand I called.

    Flop:
    Is only better calling? Probably I figure though with a pair and 3 people I should bet here but in hindsight he's calling the flop with his entire 3b range at least once so I probably shouldve checked.

    Turn:
    Of course I turn 2 pair. Welcome to online poker. I think just calling here is fine.

    River:
    I like my river bet. Anyone disagree? I can defn get called by AK, AQ but not much else. I dont think hes 3 betting pf with hands that make 2 pr by the river.
    Preflop: Not too beat you up too much, but neither of you are nearly deep enough to make this call. Even if you look at the rule as 10/20/30 (instead of the more conservative 15/25/35), you need to make $330 from the pot. SB only has $190 after the raise. I agree that SB should always show up with a big hand here, but there are other considerations. Is he capable of folding an overpair when we make our hand would be the biggest consideration. Has SB shown a high frequency of 3-betting? I do not play online any more and when I did I was a marginal player at best, but I would imagine that there are HUD stats that would help answer these questions.

    Flop: It's a decent board to fire, as we can represent a big ace here a lot. The problem is SB is essentially always calling as you said. Also, for me, there would be alarm bells going off when SB checked the flop. Not because he always has Aces here, but it's an odd line to see an early position 3-bettor check a relatively dry flop like this. When he check calls, he would have to put you on an Ace almost always.

    Turn: Check/Call then leading is a really strong line. I think a call is fine here, but again I'm pretty wary. Your hand looks so much like a strong Ace here after the flop and pre-flop action, I would be concerned about 1010 (although we have a blocker so that is less likely). As an aside, I'm curious, have you never turned 2 pair in live poker?

    River: Check back always. You are right in that he's probably not 3 betting with hands like 910, 86, 108 etc., but that narrows his range to AK, maybe AQs, and sets. The bottom of your range is a strong Ace, and your hand look more like 2 pair or a set than anything else. SB would have to be really bad to call off with AK here, let alone AQ.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    wildncrazyguy - AKA Dan VanDyke said

    ... you can question the call preflop ...
    ... he wasn't quite deep enough ...

    IMO, you mentioned the key parts yourself.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    See my replies in caps.
    Wackabrew said
    wildncrazyguy - AKA Dan VanDyke said

    Preflop:
    Ok, so you can question the call preflop but I put him on a strong hand and figured because I had position I'd take a aflop even though he wasn't quite deep enough because of the position with this Implied odds hand I called.

    Flop:
    Is only better calling? Probably I figure though with a pair and 3 people I should bet here but in hindsight he's calling the flop with his entire 3b range at least once so I probably shouldve checked.

    Turn:
    Of course I turn 2 pair. Welcome to online poker. I think just calling here is fine.

    River:
    I like my river bet. Anyone disagree? I can defn get called by AK, AQ but not much else. I dont think hes 3 betting pf with hands that make 2 pr by the river.
    Preflop: Not too beat you up too much, but neither of you are nearly deep enough to make this call. Even if you look at the rule as 10/20/30 (instead of the more conservative 15/25/35), you need to make $330 from the pot. SB only has $190 after the raise. I agree that SB should always show up with a big hand here, but there are other considerations. Is he capable of folding an overpair when we make our hand would be the biggest consideration. Has SB shown a high frequency of 3-betting? I do not play online any more and when I did I was a marginal player at best, but I would imagine that there are HUD stats that would help answer these questions.

    I DID MENTION THIS BUT SOMETIMES I'LL PEEL IN MARGINAL SPOTS IF I THINK I CAN OUTPLAY HIM ALTHOUGH LIKE YOU SAID I'M NOT REALLY DEEP ENOUGH.

    Flop: It's a decent board to fire, as we can represent a big ace here a lot. The problem is SB is essentially always calling as you said. Also, for me, there would be alarm bells going off when SB checked the flop. Not because he always has Aces here, but it's an odd line to see an early position 3-bettor check a relatively dry flop like this. When he check calls, he would have to put you on an Ace almost always.

    EXCELLENT POINTS. ITS TRUE TO 3B AND THAN CHK A DRY BOARD SCREAMS MONSTER AND WHEN HE CALLS I'M LIKELY BEAT. CHECK BACK WAS IN ORDER.

    Turn: Check/Call then leading is a really strong line. I think a call is fine here, but again I'm pretty wary. Your hand looks so much like a strong Ace here after the flop and pre-flop action, I would be concerned about 1010 (although we have a blocker so that is less likely). As an aside, I'm curious, have you never turned 2 pair in live poker?

    ANOTHER GOOD POINT. WHY IS HE LEADING INTO ME ON THE TURN WHEN I MOST LIKELY HAVE A STRONG ACE? TOO WEAK TO FOLD HERE THOUGH BECAUSE HE COULD HAVE AK OR AQ. AND YES I'VE TURNED 2 PR VS A SET IN LIVE PLAY BUT NOT EVERY FIN HAND WHICH IS WHAT IT FELT LIKE SAT NIGHT. HEM STATES MY EV IS $500 AND I WAS -$900. THERES RUNNING BAD AND RETARDED WHICH I FIND TOO MUCH OF ONLINE. YES LIVE TOO BUT NOT TO THE SAME EXTENT.

    River: Check back always. You are right in that he's probably not 3 betting with hands like 910, 86, 108 etc., but that narrows his range to AK, maybe AQs, and sets. The bottom of your range is a strong Ace, and your hand look more like 2 pair or a set than anything else. SB would have to be really bad to call off with AK here, let alone AQ.
    I DISAGREE. I THINK AK AND AQ WILL CALL THE RIVER HERE. CURIOUS AS TO WHAT BART THINKS AND OTHERS THINK. I'M WITH YOU WHEN I THINK SOMETIMES BART (LIKE THAT KK HAND HE RAISED WITH) GOES TOO THIN ON VALUE BETS SOMETIMES BUT THIS HAND SHOULD BE A BET ON THE RIVER IMO. I POKER STOVED MY HAND WITH THIS BOARD VS VILLIANS RANGE OF ONLY THE TOP 5% OF HANDS (ABOUT RIGHT FOR MOST 3 BETTORS- ILL HAVE TO LOOK IT UP) AND I'M 83% VS HIS RANGE. IF HE 3 BETS 20% OF HIS HANDS I'M A 70% FAVORITE WITH MY 2 PR VS HIS RANGE. THE ONLY THING HE COULD HAVE THAT BEATS ME REALISTIICALLY IS A SET OF ACES OR TENS AND I THINK MOST PLAYERS CALL W AK AND SOMETIMES AQ HERE A LOT.

    APPRECIATE YOUR FEEDBACK TO MY HANDS. I'LL TRY TO DO THE SAME WHEN YOU POST HANDS. YOU DID BRING UP SOME GOOD POINTS.
  • I think that preflop is a fold Dan, like you stated. Im not sure if you have installed your HUD yet but in online 6 max the 3 bet bluffing frequencies tend to be way higher than live so we cant always give him a hand just because he three bets.

    I doubt your flop bet is going to get through both guys here. PF 3 better is either checking Ax, or a pair and is not going to fold unless the guy behind you calls, in which case the guy behind you has you beat.

    I think the turn is fine.

    The river is close with a one liner appearing. It sucks that there isnt any front door draw that you could have missed. I can go either way with this but I'd probably check this back as I find it very difficult that you would get called by AK, AQ. It is not about the strength of his hand but rather what your hand looks like. If the river was say an offsuit 2 then it would be a bet almost 100% if checked to.

    Because your hand looks so strong when you bet you have to value bet less and bluff more (from Galfond). If for some reason you were holding on with a hand like A3ss I would certainty turn this into a bluff, here.

    Bart
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    Why on earth would I bluff A3ss? Its the same as 10 7 and do you really think AK is folding? I dont. You tell me yourself all the time people dont fold TP let alone TPTK. I never raised him on the turn or flop so why woudlnt he think TPTK is best? There's more AKs in his range than sets. Why ru worried about the one liner? The only way he could have a stright here is if he had 77 and that's stretching it for a 9 handed game.
  • A3 is not the same as T7 as T7 is a straight.

    Dan, you have to start fundamentally thinking about hands in a different way. Put yourself in your opponent's shoes so that you can try to determine what it is that you are representing by betting the flop, calling the turn and betting the river. If you had led out on the flop with AT, A9, A8, A7, A6 or A5, T9, T8, T7, 97, 57, or even a hand that was bluffing like QJ you have one pair beat. Your just call on the turn means that you are not floating with anything and eliminates you Tx hands that do not pick up a straight draw or 2 pair. If I was in your villains spot I would certainly fold one pair here on the river--although I doubt I would take a check call line on the flop--as your Tx hands make a straight or two pair and I would be just bluff catching vs hands you decide to turn into a bluff.

    In reality you have no value betting range on the river that I beat with AK which is why we need to check back some of our weaker two pair hands--not because of the absolute strength of our hand but the range of hands that we will get called by. This also leads to a very profitable spot of turning hands--maybe even as strong as AJ or AQ--into a bluff.

    Bart
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    wildncrazyguy said

    You tell me yourself all the time people dont fold TP let alone TPTK.
    Bart's advice is typically geared for Live low/mid stakes. Online play is a totally different animal. 1/2 Online is essentially the equivalent of 5/10 Live. Someone who is beating 1/2 NL Online should be crushing 2/5 Live and at the very least be a winning player in 5/10.

    Typical live donks playing 1/2 probably aren't folding AK in that spot, or, if they are, it's for the wrong reason - because they think that you luckboxed into a straight on the river, even though it's nearly impossible for you to have given the pre-flop action.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    I meant to say 10 8 . Anyways I do think about what I;m repping in addition to what the opponent has which I think is what you're saying as far as thinking a different way. You make a great point that good players will fold because one pr here is no good on the river and a thinking player will figure that out like you would. I don't see very many good players online on merge at 1-2. I think I;m getting called here a ton w AK because they are only looking at their own hand. I also wouldn't bluff A3 here for that same reason. I only thought of 77 and not QJ which I see is another possibility. But you say that if the river is a blank you're value betting the river? Does a one liner change things that much - I guess 77 and QJ are now beating AK as well. I get what you're saying about the front door draw I think. I could value bet the river and he'd call w AK thinkin I busted a flush draw. Anyways I do more than anything think its a good example of also he thinks that I think. WHat I mean by that is he knows that I know he most likely has a strong ace and knowing that would I bet into AK on the river if I couldn't beat AK? Thats giving most players a lot of credit though. Not the typical competition I see. Guess that's dependant on whether or not hes a consistant player online - should look that up.
    Bart said

    A3 is not the same as T7 as T7 is a straight.

    Dan, you have to start fundamentally thinking about hands in a different way. Put yourself in your opponent's shoes so that you can try to determine what it is that you are representing by betting the flop, calling the turn and betting the river. If you had led out on the flop with AT, A9, A8, A7, A6 or A5, T9, T8, T7, 97, 57, or even a hand that was bluffing like QJ you have one pair beat. Your just call on the turn means that you are not floating with anything and eliminates you Tx hands that do not pick up a straight draw or 2 pair. If I was in your villains spot I would certainly fold one pair here on the river--although I doubt I would take a check call line on the flop--as your Tx hands make a straight or two pair and I would be just bluff catching vs hands you decide to turn into a bluff.

    In reality you have no value betting range on the river that I beat with AK which is why we need to check back some of our weaker two pair hands--not because of the absolute strength of our hand but the range of hands that we will get called by. This also leads to a very profitable spot of turning hands--maybe even as strong as AJ or AQ--into a bluff.

    Bart
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