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Raising Hands preflop

wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Ok So Heldem Manager is pretty slick as far as it told me what hands I play what what positions and how I've done.

My biggest losing hands from Early position: KQo, JTs, 88, 99, 33, 44, A9s (Also AKo but I think its a no brainer not to limp with this anyways). I like opening poskcet prs from any position. I guess thats always up for debate. What about the others though? I dont like limping from upfront but a hand like 88 or KQo is too strong I think to just fold. I guess a could limp call with these hand not a fan of that. Thoughts?

Middle position losers: Ako-ATo, AJs, A8s, KQo,JTs,K9s. From middle pos I typicall raise with AT+ and hands again like J10s. Other hands like K9s and A8s I dont know. I dont think its terrible. What do you guys think?

Late position: AQs, KJs, K8s, Q9o, A8o, A6o. I dont mind these. I like raising on the button sometimes with any ace.

I welcome thooughts. I just saw a seminar from Annie Duke which talks about limping is not good for the most part because it doesn't give you any information about the oppenents hands preflop. Funny thing to note I noticed is when I'm in position I win a lot more the oop. Makes sense but funny to eee that data backs it up.

Comments

  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Dan, I assume you are talking about online poker exclusively, so forget about what I am saying if this assumption is wrong.

    At NL200 Fullring (1$/2$), I doubt that you can play small pocket pairs below 66 or hands like KQ profitably from upfront. Also A9s or ATo should be a clear fold (Axs becomes different if you are > 150 BB against most opponents).

    A6o is definitely too weak to open from any position, I would even fold this from the button (unless the blinds are terrible, which is rare at these levels online).

    JTo from MP is also a fold IMO.

    Also, limping is generally not a profitable play.

    What's your overall VPIP (voluntarily put money in the pot) stat for a 9 handed game? If you are above 12-15, this is most probaby too loose.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    How many hands have you played and are you analyzing? Without a reasonably large sample size, short term variance will mean much more than any results you might see.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    Thosands of hands over 2 weeks. Yes online only. I do analyze hands although I shoul dmaybe analyze the hands like KQ to see how I'm losing. My VPIP/PFR is a lot wider than 15 (15 VPIP I personally think is way too tight but I open a lot of hands in late position) - VPIP 30 / PFR 17. I do raise hands like K3s on the button but my data shows I'm profitable playing hands like this as long as I'm in position.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    Are you playing exclusively FR? Or are some of your stats from 6-max? I would imagine that in a 6-max game, 30/17 is still a bit loose/passive (30/25 is probably ideal if you are trying to play LAG). In a full ring game though a 30 VPIP is pretty high (I might be tight but I don't even play that many hands in a live full ring game). I would ditch everything but premiums from up front (Sklansky groups 1-3), and only play them for a raise. You can open up wider as you move into later position, but I am not really going outside the top 30% of hands even on the button (unless the blinds just literally fold everything to a raise), so that would mean stuff like K3s, A6o, etc. are just folds.

    You also need to think about things like stack sizes. Are you typically in a for a full BI, or are you short stacking? If the latter, then you need to be folding a TON more.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    Interesting. I'm usually buying in full but sometimes short. WHy do you say fold a ton more if short stacking (ie 40bb)? I guess hands like suited connectors and small prs you dont want to play but hands like KJ I''ll play even short stacked if I'm in position. I play both 6 max and FR. Good question there. My stat in full ring is not much different . Of course I play more hands 6 max, for example I'll raise any Ace from the last 3 positions 6 max.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    If you are short stacking, you can't play as wide of a range because you will be essentially be committed to the hand after a single raise and a call. Opening the same range as you would when full stacked is like burning money because you will miss more often and you cannot profitably chase draws or represent hands. You'll have to stack off on a K108 board with KJo (to use your example from above), because once there's been a bet on the flop you'll only have about a PSB left. (ex. Raise to $7 from CO, But, BB Call, Pot $21, Our stack $73; after a C-bet of $14 on a K high flop that gets called by the BB, the pot is $49 and our stack is $59).

    Short stacking is something that I don't like to do because it's essentially shove or fold. You definitely cannot play suited connectors or even medium to low pocket pairs to any raise profitably. You basically cannot have a 3-bet bluffing range, because if you get 4-bet, you'll get odds to call with almost any 2.
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    6M and FR stats are majorly different.

    In a FR game it hink optimal is playing like 18/15 or something like that where in 6M playing anything from like 34/30 to 26/22 is fine. You wanna keep the spread of vpip and PFR small.

    From EP in a FR game you should be limping 22-66 and just trying to make sets. You can open 77+ and AQ+ ditch the rest. They play too poorly OOP vs normal villians.

    You can open it up a bit from mid (assuming no one has opened already) and start opening 22+ KJ+ AT+ and even more from btn,co.

    Raising trash as a steal from LP depends 100% on the villians in the blinds. adjust your ranges based ont heir fold to steal %. If they fold to steal 65%+ it is directly profitable to open ATC. It is very hard to defend with a 35% range from the blinds so as a general rule i open 100% of btns and just give up if they defend and i dont hit anything.

    For 6M you basically dont want to be limping anything if you are first in. The spread in your VPIP and PFR will come from calling IP vs an opener. If you wanna play a hand in 6M and no one has raised before you just raise yourself.

    Also be sure that you are filtering your hands correctly when analyzing your play. Make sure that you are only looking at specific spots. Make sure if you are opening from EP you are folding to 3b a lot since people wont 3b your UTG opens that often with shit. I bet that you arent folding to 3b enough and thats why your stats say you are losing from UTG with certain hands. When looking at your results you should only be losing $ from the blinds. Every other spot should be profitable for you to play. winning a little from UTG and it should increase as you get closer to the btn and you should be crushing from the btn. Break down your stats more and look closely at what you are doing from each position. You should be able to find huge leaks that with a tiny tweak from your starting hand selection will plug and your win rate will skyrocket.
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    If you are short stacking you wanna play hands that make good TP hands. Fold everything that isnt broadway cards. 3b/squeeze a lot because thats where your profits will come from. The reason people can short stack profitably is because everyone is playing GTO for 100bb stacks and not your 40bb stack. Opening certain hands when 100bb stacks is massivley +ev but if you have a 40bb stack it becomes hugley -EV.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    I get your point about representing but the counter argument to short stacking is as long as you're ahead of his range you can get it in and profit in the long run. Plus I run soo bad online and feel more comfortable buying in for 40bb vs 100bb so when I get sucked out on I dont lose as much. If I double up I stay and play normal but this online sht - I dont know I"m still questioning how on the up and up it is. My EV$ according to HEM is WAY above my actual $ earned. I'm down $1300 this week and HEM says I should be up $500 if I was running neutral EV.
    Wackabrew said

    If you are short stacking, you can't play as wide of a range because you will be essentially be committed to the hand after a single raise and a call. Opening the same range as you would when full stacked is like burning money because you will miss more often and you cannot profitably chase draws or represent hands. You'll have to stack off on a K108 board with KJo (to use your example from above), because once there's been a bet on the flop you'll only have about a PSB left. (ex. Raise to $7 from CO, But, BB Call, Pot $21, Our stack $73; after a C-bet of $14 on a K high flop that gets called by the BB, the pot is $49 and our stack is $59).

    Short stacking is something that I don't like to do because it's essentially shove or fold. You definitely cannot play suited connectors or even medium to low pocket pairs to any raise profitably. You basically cannot have a 3-bet bluffing range, because if you get 4-bet, you'll get odds to call with almost any 2.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    wildncrazyguy said
    My EV$ according to HEM is WAY above my actual $ earned. I'm down $1300 this week and HEM says I should be up $500 if I was running neutral EV.
    Dan,

    dealing with such swings is one of the hardest aspects of poker (especially online), and probably one of the reasons why a lot of people are less successful over the long-term than their technical skill level would suggest. At least I know from myself that I am pretty poor in terms of handling variance and how it f**cks with my mind and emotions.

    But to be honest, those swings happen all the time, and everybody who has played a decent amount online can testify. You are about 9 buyins under EV (assuming you play mainly NL200), which is nothing unusual. Lots of players have experienced much worse downswings in Holdem, let alone PLO.

    Also, you have to remember that the EV stat only shows some factors that influence your results. You can hit set over set three times a day and get maximum payoff, but your EV stat won't show that. You can get in KK preflop four times in a row and run into AA every single time - HEM won't show you this in the EV stat. And the human mind tends to forget the positive events much quicker than the negative ones in poker, so your memory after a session won't give you a neutral picture about how you run.

    The only thing you can do is really focus on playing your best, analyzing hands afterwards (which you do), and go on. Or take a break and continue a week later (that's what works best for myself).

    Anyways, good luck!
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    Running below ev is totally normal. You haven't even hit varience yet. The best way to get out if a downswing and to reduce varience is by increasing your win rate. That isn't gonna happen if you are short stacking. You will make more $/h playing 4 tables of 50nl than 1 of 200. Just move down and grind hands. You will get better playing deeper than you will short stacking.

    As for online poker being rigged... Just think about it. They have a license to print money. All they have to do to make millions of dollars is keep the games fair. That's it. If you owned say pokerstars and made 500M a year. Would you risk that to make a little extra? How much would you have to stand to gain to risk losing your 500M a year business? Even if you could cheat and take an extra 5B off players is it worth it?

    The poker site doesn't give a fuck who wins. If tey wanted to cheat the games to make more money the best way to do it is make everyone break even so they rake it all of te tables. Not target random people and have them lose $1000.
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