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2/5 NL flop bottom set on straight board

Your standard 2/5 NL game.

Villain is showing signs of tilt after not making his draws and is playing overly aggressive post flop. He has a history of not believing people and over playing his hands. Is also very capable of a bluff.

One limp (villain), I make it $25 with 33 in the CO. Folds to villain who calls.

Flop: 3 4 5 rainbow ($50)
Villain donk leads $30.

Villain has $800 behind. What is our move? If we raise, what do we do if 3bet? If we are flatted? Do we ever just call the $30? Discuss!

Comments

  • eselspiel Posts: 115Subscriber
    I'd make it $80, which is about a 2/3 pot size raise, to start buidling a pot; a fair bit of is range is a straight draw or pair and a straight draw. Call a normal three bet. He may have Ax for the gut shot and overcard and think he has out with his A.

    Depending on how spazzy you think he is, fold to a shove. Based on the starting range I give him, he has a straight or set about
    20% of the time. You're bascally drawing dead to a set and have about 36% equity against a straight.

    On a turn that doesn't help the straight, bet large. If he leads into you, just call; you have shown a lot of strength and he is not slowing down.

    General question: why are you trying to isolate an agressive, tilty opponent with such a spectulative but weak hand? If you miss your set, how do you plan to win? What if he raised you PF? Then you have to throw your hand away because you're not getting the right odds to set mine.
  • WillWay Posts: 35Member
    Considering he had been tilting, and he was so deep relative to the required call wouldn't it be profitable enough as an implied odds play there in position? The raise was aggressive yes, but if the villain 3-bet preflop FC could always bet/fold. The donk lead does seem fishy, but flatting to the turn to see anything north of a 9 or a raise to around 80 as you stated for a bet/fold to a 4-bet seems reasonable. The guy does have alot of small pairs in his range as well as suited connectors, but set over set is so unlikely. His lead includes also includes alot of 6s,7s, and 8s that connect to str8 poss.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    If he has a hand like pair and straight draw (56, 46, etc.) or A6 or A5 or something fishy like those hands, then a paint card might scare him into c/f the turn if hero were to just smooth call the flop and bet big on the turn. I like a raise to $80-ish on the flop, as we want to get value right now, on this street. A flop donk bet like this is usually not a set-up for a bet/3-bet line, at least in my games. Usually this is a "see where I'm at" fishy donk bet, meant as a bet-call line.

    I would raise now, just call if villain 3-bets. Keep extracting value on all turn cards except straightening cards if villain just calls your flop raise.
  • eselspiel said

    I'd make it $80, which is about a 2/3 pot size raise, to start buidling a pot; a fair bit of is range is a straight draw or pair and a straight draw. Call a normal three bet. He may have Ax for the gut shot and overcard and think he has out with his A.

    Depending on how spazzy you think he is, fold to a shove. Based on the starting range I give him, he has a straight or set about
    20% of the time. You're bascally drawing dead to a set and have about 36% equity against a straight.

    On a turn that doesn't help the straight, bet large. If he leads into you, just call; you have shown a lot of strength and he is not slowing down.

    General question: why are you trying to isolate an agressive, tilty opponent with such a spectulative but weak hand? If you miss your set, how do you plan to win? What if he raised you PF? Then you have to throw your hand away because you're not getting the right odds to set mine.
    Answering your questions:

    1. I don't see what is wrong with isolating an opponent I know I'm better than in position with a pair. Rake is also definitely a consideration. I am in late position with a pair and only one person is in the pot. Why not build the pot up? You can't always just assume that the pot will get big post flop, especially when people play so scared in limped pots (at least in my experience and the games I play in).

    2. I don't just check back small pairs on an ace high board or something. I am more than capable of turning my hands into bluffs. Just because I don't hit a set doesn't mean I'm not going to win the pot, especially in position.

    3. If he limp re-raised pre flop it's an easy call.

    4. I don't have to throw my hand away if he say makes it $75. It's 50 more to call to set mine in position $800+ deep. Super standard, easy call.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    fishcake said

    Your standard 2/5 NL game.

    Villain is showing signs of tilt after not making his draws and is playing overly aggressive post flop. He has a history of not believing people and over playing his hands. Is also very capable of a bluff.

    One limp (villain), I make it $25 with 33 in the CO. Folds to villain who calls.

    Flop: 3 4 5 rainbow ($50)
    Villain donk leads $30.

    Villain has $800 behind. What is our move? If we raise, what do we do if 3bet? If we are flatted? Do we ever just call the $30? Discuss!
    Although leading into the preflop raiser with the nuts is actually a pretty good play, you almost never see it .. furthermore if this guy isnt a good player then I am pretty much throwing that out of his range.. What he probably has is a hand like an overpair to the board ( 66-99s) or a pair and straight draw or even two pair. You pretty much crush that range..

    I would raise about 2/3 s pot.. say to $115 or so.. if he calls then the pot will be $280... You can bet $175 on the turn.. and get the rest on the river..

    Now if he shoves I think his range is skewed to two pair and set type hands and the occasional straight if he actually led out.. but then you still have full house outs and there are many many more combos of pairs and straight draws.. so if he calls rather than shoves his range will be those hands I feel.

    h
  • eselspiel Posts: 115Subscriber
    PF there are still others left to act. They could also raise. If they come along, and you hit the set. There's a greater chance someone flopped something to pay you off with. I think there's easier ways to make money than trying to bluffy aggressive players on mini-tilt.

    How'd this turn out?
  • Results: I made it $90, villain 3bet to $210.....
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    fishcake said

    Results: I made it $90, villain 3bet to $210.....
    hmm ... bet three bet? thats pretty sick.. I think this is read dependent then.. this is basically asking you to 5 bet shove and normally that is NOT a bluff.. so if its not a bluff then what value hand could he have? .. I think he bets bigger w two pair since that is more vulnerable so I guess I think hes much more likely to have a set+.. then he has me pretty much crushed...

    If you havent seen him bet three bet as a bluff or an overplay then I guess its a fold..

    and I still wouldnt call.. you do that now you have no idea where you are and you will be facing a much bigger bet than what you would have raised. So you raised to 90.. if you had called I am sure if he bets his bet will be over $125.. so raise folding will save you money when beat in the long run.

    Wendy
  • eselspiel Posts: 115Subscriber
    fishcake said

    Results: I made it $90, villain 3bet to $210.....
    Yeah, this sucks. Your hand looks like a big pocket pair. Unfortunately, that's what it effectively is.
    Unless you see this guy going crazy with two pair, I think a fold is right.
  • Outlier Posts: 88Subscriber
    With the player history given, I don't see how you can ever fold the flop. Sure, villain could have hit a set or the straight, but there are so many pairs + straight draws in his hand as well. As you pointed out, he's frustrated about having missed his draws, so I think it's more likely he will chase, even when not getting a good price.

    It's not standard, but given the dynamic, I think a case can be made for making a bigger raise on the flop, like $120-150. He has a lot of weaker hands in his range and that he's unlikely to fold (pair + straight draws), so pump the money in there.

    I like the raise sizing suggested ($80ish) if we think this increases the chances of villain spazzing out and 3betting his draws, which sounds plausible given the history. In that case we are happy to see his 3bet on the flop. Once he 3bets, I like calling the flop. We've got position so we want to use it to get as much info as possible. At that point there will be $460 in the pot and villain has $600ish behind. We have a good chance of picking up good info on the strength of his hand with the size of his turn bet.

    I think this hand is a little tougher to play strictly from an equity perspective as game flow and tilt play a significant role. It's like the question that comes up regularly: how deep do I need to be before stacking off with an overpair is no longer sound? Certainly 160 BBs is deep enough for us to get away from a set, but s this villain? I don't know. It's hard for any of us to gauge this how tilty villain was, but he sounds like he might be ripe for calling down if draws brick out and we think he's capable of bluffing his draws all the way.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Bet three bets are so rarely a bluff AND his sizing is so small like he isnt aftraid of anything. That's not a tilty type play IMHO.. so you are really down to I think two sides..

    1) he has a made hand.. one that is nutty in type.. this would be a straight or something like top two pair..or top set...

    2) he is taking a really weird line with a pair and straight draw.. or really weird line with something like AA...


    this is really polarized and your hand is basically just a bluff catcher .. I still remember what a really good player told me once "I make big calls and big folds"

    I think you should fold.. save the rest of your stack and know that you have elavated your game to a level most can only dream about.

    wendy
  • I just can't see how making big folds to bad players is profitable in these types of spots. This is a lot different from bet or raise folding rivers where villains have incredibly nutty ranges. I think he could have two pair here or a pair and a straight draw and the only thing you are really killed by is an overset type of hand. Its so rare I see guys lead three bet sets at these levels.

    You could call, and call of basically any turn. The reason to do this would be to have him continue on with hands that he might fold to your flop push. And I really don't think you can fold ANY turn. A deuce kind of sucks because he would be scared that you would have an A so if he bets heavy I'd be worried. But I still see guys bet spaz here with two pair protecting against the straight--which is the reason I'd still probably call if a 6 fell.

    Bart
  • Results: I called the 3bet on the turn and shoved over his bet on the turn (turn was an off suit 8). I just didn't see how I could fold this hand to this player. My hand ended up being good. He said two pair, I tabled, he mucked and left.

    Thanks for the responses.
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