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POLL: Folding the best hand

Q: Do you feel more frustrated when you fold the best hand on the river or call a river bet only to find out you were obviously beat?
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Comments

  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,862Subscriber
    Calling with worst
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Making either play when the price was or wasnt correct. And that should always be the focus.
  • CalgaryPokerGuy Posts: 342Subscriber
    Calling with the worst.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,862Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    Making either play when the price was or wasnt correct. And that should always be the focus.
    Are you a robot? Do you have a heart?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    NEVERLEARN2 said:
    Thehammah said:
    Making either play when the price was or wasnt correct. And that should always be the focus.
    Are you a robot? Do you have a heart?
    Of course i do. But i dont get made when i call and lose when i was getting the right price. Same as winning when i call and didnt have the right price.

    Its taken a long long time but thats whats important for me. :-)
  • ACK Posts: 428Subscriber
    edited March 2015
    Calling feels worse than folding imo
  • CalgaryPokerGuy Posts: 342Subscriber
    edited March 2015
    Hammah: So when you're shown a bluff, you're saying you can accurately use math to make you feel better? Or vice versa, when you call and get owned, you know for sure you were getting the right price on the river regardless?

    I don't think the math of calling with the worst hand or folding the best hand on the river is clearly enough defined to strictly go by that...

    I think it's very theoretical on the river. To be able to say "'my hand was going to be good there exactly 24% of the time in that spot so I had the correct pot odds, and I don't care that I got owned", nevermind being able to accurately calculate the percentage on the fly, is a little unrealistic.

    I think op's question was more about the feelings. The reason I think calling and losing feels worse than folding a winner is that as better players, we should be folding winners sometimes. But when we pay off a fish it feels more like we made a mistake (even though we should also be calling with losers sometimes).
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited March 2015
    I guess I am not explaining very well. So let say I think a particular villain has a range of x y z and w.. I have a certain hand that will be good I think a certain percentage of the time. He bets an amount that if I call it is better than the equity %. Then it doesnt matter if I win or not.. I have made a good decision..

    I get made at myself when I make a call regardless if I win that given the situation with that villain is profitable..

    it has taken me a long long time to switch from wanting to always win pots to always wanting to make profitable decisions.. I know now that in the long run making profitable decisions will make me more $$ that only wanting to show winners.. so I concentrate on that.

    calling a losing a pot could be a very profitable play.. maybe even more so then in another hand where I called and won.. thats all I am saying.. rejoice in the decision NOT the outcome..

    ww
    by 1TDF
  • CalgaryPokerGuy Posts: 342Subscriber
    edited March 2015
    I understood what you meant. However, this is a tough theoritical percentage to do in your head on the river. It basically requires poker stove with an accurate weighted range of villain's hands (including an accurate weighted range of bluffs, something which is almost always unknown) to be a meaningful number, and in real time.

    Are you doing all this in your head? And are you doing this every hand that you make a losing call / bad fold to know that it was in fact profitable?

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    No i dont do all the math at the table. I do the equity work off the table and when in same types of situations i remember what it was.

    Also when say a bet for you to call is say $150 into 500. I am getting like 3:1. So i say to myself am i good more than 1 out of four times? Its not exact. But thats why working off the felt to get equities in typical types of situations is important. Then i dont have to sit and try to calculate everything in real time
  • dross11 Posts: 58Member
    I hate folding better more than calling with worse because I feel like my opponent got lucky to get one of the few hands that can stack me and I feel like I just got out played if he makes me fold the best hand when I could of stacked him. I'd rather have my opponent get lucky against me than out play me. Nothing makes me more sick than knowing that my opponent out played me.
  • CalgaryPokerGuy Posts: 342Subscriber
    So could your answer to the original question also be that you don't feel anything in either instance because you won't know until you do work later, as the actual equity is unknown in real time?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited March 2015
    CalgaryPokerGuy said:
    So could your answer to the original question also be that you don't feel anything in either instance because you won't know until you do work later, as the actual equity is unknown in real time?
    Are you trying to catch me in something? I have been doing this for years most of the situations are simple and dont take much as I have seen them tons time before.

    Decisions matter outcomes dont. Why are you focusing on trying to find something wrong with my statement?
  • CalgaryPokerGuy Posts: 342Subscriber
    Just that you said you never get mad when you know that you made the right decision, yet there's no way to really know at the time, so this doesn't make sense. Even working off the table constructing a range (with bluffs) for a villain is still theoritical and a lot of guesswork, so it's not too conclusive, but I guess this point is irrelevant.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    you realize there isnt any certainty in poker correct? Its all educated guesses? If certain situations come up often then you can simulate these off the table so when you are at the table you can know better what to do ..

    I dunno maybe not many people run equities or do combo work on hands you find interesting that havent come up before.. I do and have since I joined clp.. this work in my mind is necessary to really take your game to the next level.

    after doing this for three years I have an inventory of alot of common situations that I see over and over again.. SOOO when a situation similar comes up I know what I am going to do..

    i dont have a crystal ball.. I am still not sure what you are trying to get at.. If this work makes me better at decisions then thats whats important to me..

  • CalgaryPokerGuy Posts: 342Subscriber
    But all that still seems pretty meaningless... It's like you're saying you never get upset because you always make the right decision and know it, or something like that.

    Anyways I'll leave it at that. And that calling with the worse hand feels worse.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    Getting mad doesn't make sense.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,311Pro
    Its human nature to feel more pain for money lost then missed chance to gain so as humans we all probably feel worse when we make bad calls.

    But I agree with hammah that if those feelings in any way effect your play then you really need to work on how to ignore or reduce them. Being properly rolled helps. My background is in finance so I came to poker already treating money as very abstract and impersonal so neither of the two scenarios make me feel much at all, but I have plenty of emotional and under rolled friends who have had to deal with it. I think time helps as you become numb to things when they happen a lot. What you really dont want to do is reinforce any feelings by dwelling on these situations. If you keep paying people off then figure out why - but try to do so in a way that does not reinforce any negative emotions that would keep you from correctly calling.
  • BradleyT Posts: 621SubscriberProfessional
    Calling with worse.

    Spoiler:
    In both scenarios you lose the pot. When you call with worse you lose additional money (the call).
  • CalgaryPokerGuy Posts: 342Subscriber
    BradleyT said:
    Calling with worse.

    Spoiler:
    In both scenarios you lose the pot. When you call with worse you lose additional money (the call).
    Agreed but food for thought, folding the winning hand is bigger swing to your stack. Eg. Calling $100 to lose that $100 sucks, but folding for $100 when you could have won a $250 pot sucks as well (villain bets $100 into $150 pot). Hey?
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