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PLO8: NFD+NLD on the turn

PLO Hilo. Hero Just won a big pot previous hand and stacking chips. Check in BB $5 with Kh5h32.

5way flop ($25) of Ah Kc 8h. Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets $20. LP, Hero, and UTG call.

Turn ($105) Ah Kc 8h Js. Checked to MP who bets 40. LP and hero call. UTG pots $265 total with $330 more back. Folds to hero who calls (?). Hero covers.

River ($635) Ah Kc 8h Jc Jh. Hero?

Only been at table for 15 mins and have no reads on UTG. He is mid 30's and wearing beats. Hero has winning image after playing last hand aggressive and winning it.

Comments

  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Probably check/call off. UTG has a lot of broadways in his turn c/r range (QTxx) and not a lot of sets. I would think with most sets, UTG bets flop or goes for a flop c/r.

    BTW, FWIW I never get to the river like this. Flopping the best high draw AND the best low draw in a limped pot, I'm leading this flop from the blinds all day long, hoping to get called in multiple spots, and then piling it in if I get raised. Tough to ask for a better spot in PLO8. Plus, you are still stacking your chips from the previous hand, so your image is solid gold! Why did you decide to play the hand so passively, if I may ask?
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    I would either c/r flop or lead flop (depending on players), then lead the turn. Cry when an offsuit 9 hits the river, and we lose to a pair of aces :tu:

    As for what to do now that you got to the river as you did, I think checking back is best. Worse flush draws may bet the river, especially last to act. You also get to see what the other players do, and evaluate from there.

    If you lead the river, you'd only getting called by boats unless this is the world's softest PLO8 game. Checking and potentially calling depending on the action/bet sizing lets you take a value-own line, and also doesn't cause you to get called only by better (as should happen if you lead).
  • High__Rolla Posts: 765Subscriber
    @reedmylips, I think your point about the flop is valid, and I likely made a mistake there.

    I didn't describe MP much in the OP, But I have played with him several times before and he is a habitual loose bettor. He generally bets like half the pot or less and when he is stuck like tonight it seems like he's just throwing money into the pot and not really considering why he bets. When he faces aggression, he will call off pretty wide. So my plan had been to turn the Nut low with backup and make a big c/r when MP bet and sandwiched some callers in between. We started about $1200 effective with MP.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I think we can bet river $200 here as QT is never betting the worst card in the deck (for his hand) if we check (but might make a crying call). I think in low stakes plo8 , when a player c/r the turn they almost always have QTxx. He would have to have AJQT / JJQT / AAQT / 88QT for us to lose with the river card.
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    Highly doubt QT is calling now unless he's horrible. If so, sure, lead small.

    In a vacuum, prefer a check for the reasons mentioned.
  • High__Rolla Posts: 765Subscriber
    khalwat said:
    Highly doubt QT is calling now unless he's horrible. If so, sure, lead small.

    In a vacuum, prefer a check for the reasons mentioned.
    If he has QT:hh do you think an unknown is more likely to bet that River when checked to or call a lead from me? He has $330 left.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    I'm new to the game, but this would seem like leading or x/r would be way better than x/c. This may get a lot of worse draws to call and maybe can lead to having Axxx or two pairs folding a later street, which is pretty awesome when we have KX for a high.

    I have such little experience in this game, but is it likely that someone may have AXXX with top pair and "meh" low draw or A8XX and put some money in on the flop but be folding later streets when the board gets scary? Check me if I'm wrong but I think we will get some better high hands to fold or get weakish draws to call once and fold if we play this ultra aggressively on flop and turn, which would be better than having to rely on hitting our hand and occasionally getting to the river and losing to AT63 or some junk.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,821AdministratorLeadPro
    edited April 2015
    khalwat said:


    I think checking back is best.
    This perhaps is one of the simplest concepts in poker yet I continually see you use this term incorrectly!!! Hero is in BB villain is in position. We can't "check it back" to him.

    As played I would lead small at the end. You didn't mention effective stacks but I would probably bet $150 and if there was enough $$ left most likely fold to a raise, but I think a raise is going to be extremely unlikely unless the villain had a hand AAQT, AJQT or KJQT.

    One of the other things you don't have to worry about as much in PLO8 vs PLO is playing against people that are skilled high players. For example if you had a guy that was world class to your left he could theoretically suss out your bet and turn QT into a bluff. I dont expect the typical crusty old fart that plays hi-low games to do so, even if he is wearing beats. It takes a special type of self deprecating personality to play high-low games..and they usually aren't the types to turn hands into bluffs.

    Also the fact that you have 235 is so critical in your pot turn call. With just a naked 23K I don't think you can call the pot sized check raise.

  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    Bart said:
    khalwat said:


    I think checking back is best.
    This perhaps is one of the simplest concepts in poker yet I continually see you use this term incorrectly!!! Hero is in BB villain is in position. We can't "check it back" to him.
    Yeah I have a brain fart with this constantly. I just mean "check". I understand the difference, I just have a mental block on it.

    What worse are we expecting to call on a paired & flush board if we lead River, exactly? If we do lead, agree it should be small... But if I'm villain and I see tiny River bet sizing, I'm likely to raise pot. Because it feels like your hand got worse, and it's a blocker bet when you're not sure what else to do.

    If you're going to balance it and bet this size when you boat River then sure.
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    High__Rolla said:
    khalwat said:
    Highly doubt QT is calling now unless he's horrible. If so, sure, lead small.

    In a vacuum, prefer a check for the reasons mentioned.
    If he has QT:hh do you think an unknown is more likely to bet that River when checked to or call a lead from me? He has $330 left.
    If board didn't pair I'd prefer a check. Since it did pair it might freeze him, so perhaps Bart is right, lead. Fold to jam obv.
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    DrGambol said:
    I'm new to the game, but this would seem like leading or x/r would be way better than x/c. This may get a lot of worse draws to call and maybe can lead to having Axxx or two pairs folding a later street, which is pretty awesome when we have KX for a high.

    I have such little experience in this game, but is it likely that someone may have AXXX with top pair and "meh" low draw or A8XX and put some money in on the flop but be folding later streets when the board gets scary? Check me if I'm wrong but I think we will get some better high hands to fold or get weakish draws to call once and fold if we play this ultra aggressively on flop and turn, which would be better than having to rely on hitting our hand and occasionally getting to the river and losing to AT63 or some junk.
    Hero has the nut flush on the river.
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    .
  • High__Rolla Posts: 765Subscriber
    Bart said:

    As played I would lead small at the end. You didn't mention effective stacks but I would probably bet $150 and if there was enough $$ left most likely fold to a raise, but I think a raise is going to be extremely unlikely unless the villain had a hand AAQT, AJQT or KJQT.
    It's somewhat hidden in my original post, but he had $330 left after his bet on the turn. Does that change your bets sizing or line on the river?
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    khalwat said:
    DrGambol said:
    I'm new to the game, but this would seem like leading or x/r would be way better than x/c. This may get a lot of worse draws to call and maybe can lead to having Axxx or two pairs folding a later street, which is pretty awesome when we have KX for a high.

    I have such little experience in this game, but is it likely that someone may have AXXX with top pair and "meh" low draw or A8XX and put some money in on the flop but be folding later streets when the board gets scary? Check me if I'm wrong but I think we will get some better high hands to fold or get weakish draws to call once and fold if we play this ultra aggressively on flop and turn, which would be better than having to rely on hitting our hand and occasionally getting to the river and losing to AT63 or some junk.
    Hero has the nut flush on the river.
    I was talking about the flop play.
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